Dr. Anyaoku on Harmful Bias in Healthcare

02:18

And there's more there.

2:21

Well, so my big boys, my jumbo shrimp, I

2:24

call them. Um,

2:28

uh, they are my world, as you can

2:30

imagine. Um, uh, they are everything and

2:34

they inspire everything that I do, which

2:37

they wouldn't believe cuz, you know,

2:39

we're always at it

2:41

as kids are. But, you know, coming

2:44

through as a as a physician in in

2:47

America, a black woman in America,

2:50

raising two black men in America, um,

2:54

gives you a different sensibility to

2:57

the, you know, people talk about when

2:58

you have children, it's like your heart

3:00

walking outside your body

3:02

all the time and in the way that you're

3:04

anxious and worried about

3:06

and and I think when you're raising

3:08

black men, that's a whole other level of

3:09

anxiety. And um and thinking about how

3:13

the healthare system, how they interact

3:15

with it, how it interacts with them, how

3:17

the world interacts with them.

3:19

You know, makes me think about how can

3:21

we get people to see an individual. You

3:25

know, my boys are big. And when people

3:27

see big mind, they're like, "Oh, he's

3:29

scary. Can I?" But I'm not there to tell

3:31

them that they're gentle giant. I'm not

3:34

there to tell them they're kind and that

3:36

they are considerate and that they're

3:40

caring about people. People just see

3:43

these two big people and and that's kind

3:45

of the essence that you worry about when

3:48

we talk about disparities and and

3:50

inequities because people assume things

3:52

about others and we engage with them

3:54

based on our assumptions. And so how do

3:57

we make sure that you actually, you

3:59

know, don't think about equity or

4:02

inclusivity as some generic thing, but

4:04

really think about it as understanding

4:06

the person in front of you and their

4:08

value as a human being just there and

4:11

just engaging with that person. That's

4:13

what I think about and that's the energy

4:15

that I I get. Well, that was the energy

4:18

I saw and it was the same energy

4:20

uh that I have, you know, with my kids.

4:23

And I told I told my wife we should

4:25

never have kids. If I get to come back

4:27

in my next life, I don't I don't want to

4:29

cuz I don't want to feel like that about

4:31

anything. There's just I don't want to

4:33

do that. You and and don't tell anybody,

4:36

okay,

4:36

that when I was on stage, I got choked

4:38

up. Don't do that, okay? Cuz

4:41

that wasn't supposed to happen.

4:41

It'll be our secret.

‍

04:43

Yeah. Um,

4:45

are you are you are you tired of

4:48

healthcare leadership?

4:50

I know that's a loaded question and I'm

4:52

going to get back to Rhonda. You have a

4:55

long So, she has a long history of

4:58

amazing healthcare leadership, but is

5:01

there is there did you need a break from

5:03

it? Did it did it did it

5:07

I I don't know quite how to answer that

5:10

question. I think healthcare leadership

5:12

in the way that a lot of us have been

5:14

doing it feels like admiring the

5:16

problem.

5:18

It feels like we pick it up every

5:19

morning, we turn it over and we're like,

5:21

"This is bad. Maybe we should do this."

5:23

And then we turn it over and we put it

5:24

back down. And then we have another

5:26

huddle and then we pick up the problem

5:27

and we turn it over.

5:29

And and I really think that to the

5:31

essence of the conversation today,

5:32

disruption is necessary.

5:34

We need to re-imag what healthcare 3.0

5:37

should look like. And who better to do

5:39

it than those of us who are already in

5:41

it, who've been part of the front lines.

5:43

But it's hard to reinvent when you're

5:45

sitting right there because you know the

5:48

structure is designed to protect and

5:50

improve status quo. And if you're trying

5:53

to disrupt, you sort of have to step

5:55

away from it and then look back at it

5:57

with new eyes. And new eyes informed by

5:59

your history, new eyes informed by your

6:01

experience. And so I don't know that I'm

6:03

tired of it. I think it needs new eyes.

6:06

It needs a new way. And you what you say

6:08

new eyes um but you also want to

6:12

educate. You mean I know that you you

6:16

want to do coaching or you are doing

6:17

coaching

6:18

and so when you are you advising

6:21

healthcare leaders or is it just

6:22

physicians in general or is it anybody?

6:25

I advise and coach leaders, healthcare

6:29

leaders, business leaders particularly

6:31

women. Um, and the reason I do that is

6:34

because I think that, like I said, we

6:36

need to look at it with new eyes, but

6:38

those new eyes need to be informed by

6:40

our experiences. And so I want people

6:42

who have been, you know, trying to make

6:44

it work to say, hey, I actually have

6:47

within me the knowledge, the expertise,

6:50

and the experience to actually pivot to

6:52

look at these things a different way.

6:54

And particularly for women leaders, they

6:56

struggle with the story. How do you tell

6:59

the story of all that you bring to the

7:01

table? How do you use that to to get

7:04

yourself hurt? That's a problem. Um, how

7:07

do you make sure that your experience is

7:10

not dropped behind the couch, right?

7:12

That that everything that you've learned

7:14

along the way is of service to this new

7:16

world that we're trying to create. Um,

7:18

so you know, people who are in

7:20

technology trying to get into health

7:22

systems, have you thought about the

7:23

people who are going to use this, the

7:25

patient as well as the physicians, as

7:27

well as the business decision makers?

7:29

Have you thought about that whole

7:30

continuum of people who you want to look

7:32

at your product and and the problem that

7:34

you're trying to solve?

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07:35

And so I think

7:36

that for me it's really a passion work

7:39

to have people understand that all that

7:42

they bring is valuable to the next step.

7:44

So, if I'm I'm a I'm a I'm for pretend

7:48

I'm a young woman. Um I'm then let's say

7:50

I'm at a middle manager, you know, maybe

7:53

I'm a um you know, I'm an ED director or

7:57

you know, a unit director um or

8:00

something like that or I'm a VP, you

8:03

know, on the operations side.

8:04

Yeah. you've been through a lot and I

8:08

know you're not somebody who hold

8:10

grudges or you know um dwell on bad

8:14

things that have happened to you. That's

8:15

not your personality.

8:17

But you've had you probably I anticipate

8:19

had some experiences where people

8:21

treated you poorly as a black woman

8:23

leader in healthcare.

8:25

Yeah.

8:25

You know I mean so I want to ask two

8:28

questions. one, could you tell me about

8:30

it some one of those times if you could?

8:32

And then what would you advise,

8:35

you know, young leaders that know that

8:38

that's coming and how to deal with that?

8:42

Sorry.

8:42

Yeah, we're going to need more wine.

8:45

Wait, you haven't got no wine yet.

8:47

Okay,

8:47

so let's get some wine. Let's get some

8:49

wine.

8:50

Um, you know, I think the first

8:53

statement you made is correct. I don't

8:55

dwell on negativity. I think whatever

8:58

happens to you is education. It's all

9:00

information, right? So if people come

9:04

into your space and they judge you

9:06

because of whatever they their

9:08

predisposition was, you can't control

9:10

that. What you can control is how do you

9:12

engage? How do you show up? And how do

9:15

you show them that they're wrong? And

9:16

sometimes, you know, you can, sometimes

9:19

you can't. But you always have to be

9:21

true to yourself, your why, and your

9:23

integrity. And so, oh boy, in this long

9:27

journey that I have, I don't even know

9:29

how I could pick one example.

9:30

But tell me, tell me one that I mean, I

9:32

want to I want to know the one that

9:35

sticks with you the most cuz I think be

9:38

and the reason I'm going there is

9:40

because I think it's theoretic for

9:42

people. I think it's sort of a, you

9:44

know, it's like me getting pulled over

9:46

at gunpoint on the ground in my own

9:49

neighborhood thinking I'm going to die.

9:50

Yeah.

9:51

Like it's just theoretic. you start

9:52

talking about this and that, but when

9:54

people tell the story of what happened

9:55

to them, you're like, that's terrible.

9:57

So that's

9:59

I guess the one that comes to mind right

10:02

at this moment would be when my

10:04

compensation was questioned, right? I

10:06

was told, yeah, we're, you know, we're

10:08

doing this new comp model, but

10:11

if we use it, you've been so productive

10:14

that if we use it the way that we

10:16

envision it, you're going to get paid

10:17

too much.

10:18

Like too much for what?

10:20

Yeah.

10:20

Too much for who? Yeah,

10:21

right. Because clearly I should not make

10:24

all of that in their perspective

10:26

and you know and had looked at me in my

10:30

face and said if you want to make more

10:32

money you need to work you need to

10:34

consider working harder. And I thought

10:36

I'm already grinding

10:39

top of the rung.

10:40

I am maxed out. I'm you know leaving my

10:44

children in the morning to get to work

10:46

and then go back and take them to you

10:47

know I'm doing you want me to work

10:49

harder. Um,

10:52

and I realized that that narrative

10:54

repeated not just for me, but for the

10:57

three other black women in our group,

10:59

not for anybody else.

11:00

Wow.

11:01

And I don't even know if they realize

11:02

that that's what happened. But within a

11:06

year, all of us were gone

11:08

because you they people can tell you

11:11

whatever they tell you, but the way they

11:13

treat you shows you how whether you're

11:15

valued or not. Yeah.

11:16

And um and that's, you know, you look at

11:19

it and and the lesson I took from that

11:21

is to never let myself be defined by

11:24

someone else.

11:25

To make sure I tell my story in a way

11:27

that gives the narrative that I want so

11:30

that people understand my impact, so

11:32

people understand the value that I bring

11:34

because nobody's going to look for it. I

11:36

have to actually tell them. And you

11:38

know, especially and this is part of the

11:40

reason why I love to work with women

11:41

leaders. We've grown up with being

11:43

taught to be modest and to not, you

11:46

know, talk too much and not all of those

11:48

things. Just keep your head down, your

11:50

work will speak for you. Yeah. Work does

11:53

not speak. You have to speak. And that's

11:55

something that many of us have to learn.

11:58

And so, like I said, every experience

12:00

that happens, I take it as an education.

12:02

What did I learn from that? Speak. Tell

12:04

people what you do. So that in telling

12:06

them, a you're telling yourself, but b

12:09

you're keeping the record straight.

12:10

Yeah. I mean, that's great, great

12:12

advice. Great advice, frankly, to

12:14

anybody. Even when you know that the

12:16

thing, the bad thing is going to happen.

12:18

I love the idea of telling your own

12:19

narrative.

12:20

Yeah.

12:20

I've I I think I shared um or maybe I

12:24

didn't share this with you. Um I share

12:26

this a lot. just my development, my

12:29

growth as a leader

12:31

and me hiding parts of myself. Um, you

12:34

know, forever. Like I've been in it nine

12:36

years and I still haven't fully exposed

12:39

who Truly Moo is, but I mean I think

12:41

things like the podcast, my book, um, I

12:45

kept all those things hidden and

12:47

separate, but they're actually part of

12:49

me as a leader. And it took some people

12:51

to say, "Hey, this is good stuff." Or,

12:53

you know, keep going. So, I I love that

12:55

that you're um doing that for for up and

12:58

cominging leaders. So, something I ask

13:01

Oh, you had some.

13:02

Yeah. I I wanted to say that sometimes

13:03

people worry about telling their story

13:06

because they're like, "Well, maybe

13:07

nobody cares." You know, I was talking

13:08

to a lady as I was coming out of the

13:10

session and she said, "Well, I'm brash

13:12

and loud and so I don't want to be brash

13:14

and loud." I'm like, "There's somebody

13:16

out there who's brash and loud who needs

13:17

to hear from you." Yes. That brash and

13:19

loud girls can do well, too. Right. and

13:21

they and and your particular narrative

13:23

is of importance to somebody and to some

13:26

subset of the populations and you're not

13:27

going to know if you don't share it,

13:29

right? And so I I think it's really

13:31

important that whatever it is you bring

13:33

that is your journey and somebody needs

13:35

to hear it.

13:37

Um something I ask everybody um

13:39

superpower.

‍

13:42

Do you have a superpower? Do you know

13:42

what it is? Um it can't be your own

13:45

time. It can't be something simple. has

13:47

to be something unique to you that no

13:49

one else can do as well as you do.

13:52

I will tell you that my superpower is

13:54

taking complex ideas and breaking it

13:56

down so they're accessible. I can

13:59

explain anything to anyone.

14:01

Um, and I didn't actually always realize

14:04

that because early in my career, I I

14:07

judged myself for not using all the big

14:10

words and the corporate words that

14:11

everybody else used. And I'm like, "Oh,

14:13

I guess I should say it in this way,

14:15

right?" And then I realized that

14:17

actually I can take all of that distill

14:20

it down and feel oh that's what they

14:21

meant. I'm like yeah that's what they

14:22

meant. It means do this in this way and

14:24

people it becomes accessible it becomes

14:27

actionable and that applies whether I'm

14:29

talking about clinical care or

14:30

operational leadership or AI governance

14:33

you know how do you take complicated

14:35

concepts and make it accessible to

14:37

people? That's my superpower. I

‍

14:35

I

14:39

I want to know your impression of the

14:41

conference so far. What do you think of

14:42

the conference so far?

14:43

I think it's fantastic. I mean, I as I

14:46

was getting ready to come here, I

14:47

wondered if there was anything else like

14:48

this out there, like a gathering for

14:51

women, for women leaders, right? You

14:53

know, like I said, that's a it's a

14:55

uniquely challenging space. And just

14:58

seeing over 200 women here cheering each

15:01

other along, saying, "I I see you. You

15:04

get me. You understand my struggle."

15:06

It's just been absolutely phenomenal.

15:08

And it's only halfway.

15:10

Yeah.

15:10

It's been amazing.

15:11

Yeah. And you still have you still have

15:12

your your breakout.

15:13

Yes. No, I I think I I do think it is

15:16

unique because of the focus. I think

15:20

that there are other conferences that I

15:22

think people it's almost like

15:25

conferences are built to make money and

15:27

so they're like, "Oh, let's put women in

15:29

there. Oh, let's put it, you know, this

15:31

in there or that in there." And I think

15:33

that this is, I think, going to be one

15:35

that hopefully is just focused on

15:37

bringing value uh to the people that

15:39

that that come, you know. We appreciate

15:41

it on behalf of all the women.

15:43

Oh, that's awesome. I apprec Yeah. And I

15:45

I like I said, I lost it on stage

15:46

because, you know, it's it's a passion

15:49

of mine and it's weird because I'm not a

15:51

woman.

15:52

Well,

15:52

and uh

15:53

we need allies.

15:54

Yeah. Yeah. It's weird. It's weird how

15:55

passionate it is when you guys know. I

15:57

mean, this is not this is not something

15:59

that we need to do, but we need to do

16:03

it. You know what I mean? So,

16:04

so what would you want to leave? uh

16:08

people are look you know seeing this

16:09

podcast you this is going to be put

16:11

together with several of the other

16:13

amazing leaders that were on stage

16:14

today. What one thing would you want to

16:16

leave you know people and not just women

16:19

frankly and you know anybody who would

16:21

who would watch this.

‍

16:23

I want people to know that

16:26

the world is changing healthcare is

16:28

changing and your unique history and

16:31

story is necessary to define where we're

16:33

going. M

16:34

so tell your story, capture it and tell

16:36

your story.

16:38

That's awesome. That's that's simple.

16:40

Awesome. Amazing. Dr. Wando Aneka. I say

16:43

that

16:44

mess it up that way.

16:46

Let me say it again. Say say it for me

16:48

again.

16:48

Dr. Wando Anoku.

16:50

Okay, that's good. Okay.

16:53

Thank you so much. Amazing. Dr. Wando

16:56

Anyoku. There you go.

16:57

Anyu.

17:00

Dr. Enyoku. Dr. Anyoku.

17:01

There you go.

17:02

Dr. Wando and Yokub uh here on on

17:06

Brilliance

17:07

but also on the less than 1% podcast.

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