How Lee Merritt Went from Having a Low GPA to Becoming a Civil Rights Attorney

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Welcome everybody to less than 1%. Thank you for watching, listening. I know we've seen some amazing people on the show. Um I always say I don't think I'm

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great but I have great friends and so uh thank you thank you thank you for coming to watch. But today today I have somebody amazing and actually we had a

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chance meeting some people I stalk as you guys know this was sort of a chance meeting and and we have an opportunity to to really exchange ideas and I think

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this is going to be really fun because we haven't had the the the ability to have this type of uh you know conversation. Um but welcome to less than 1% Lee Merritt.

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We get to have it in live and in living color now. Yeah. Yeah. It's the real real deal.

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Now, I know that a a lot of people um may know you, but some people don't know you. So, I want to what what are you

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most famous for when you think of Lee and the impact you've had where what's the thing you're most proud of?

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Oo. So, the thing I'm most known for and the thing I'm most proud of may be different. Okay.

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Uh but the thing I'm most known for is representing victims of police violence or racialized violence. And so probably

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my highest profile case came in 2020 with Ahmad Arbury uh who was chased down in South Georgia and gunned down by a

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group of vigilantes who eventually they weren't arrested at the time but eventually they all got life without the possibility of parole at the state and the federal level and we're still in the

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middle of the the civil suit. Uh I represent families like that that have meant a lot to me. So um Ahmad and his family was one of them. Both of them Shimha here in Dallas is one of them.

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And there's uh I represent victims all over the country. Um what I'm most proud of being a Morehouse man. No, [laughter] there's a lot of things that I'm proud

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of and this work this work uh uh is really important to me and families trust me uh during some of the most vulnerable times in their lives and

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that's a huge responsibility and everyone comes and asks for the same thing and it's a moving target to ask for justice.

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Yeah. um and to be able to deliver accountability uh in some of the cases that we have some of the first conviction of police officers in Dallas

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County uh and then around the country uh some of the some of the outcomes that we've been able to produce has been really inspiring work.

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Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, I think like, you know, when I think of, you [clears throat] know, growing up, obviously you went to law school, I went to medical school. You know, you're in

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that grind and at some point you just want to finish, oh my gosh, can I pass this test? Can I pass the bar? Can I pass the MCAT? And then at some point, you

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realize where you are and you're like, I want to impact the world. I mean, you seem to have gotten to the point where obviously you are at the point where

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people are reaching out to you and you're changing the trajectory of their lives or their memories or their families. When did that flip for you

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though? Like when was it, you know, I'm just I'm going to finish law school. I'm going to do my thing. Did it become more of a calling?

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So, I I come from South Central LA. Um my father is Murder Rock. He was a a well-known gang member there and he was

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incarcerated most of my life and because of that being born where I was born uh in the household I was born in my mom's a teenage mom had several kids before me

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uh a couple after me and um uh I was told that I was an atrisisk youth uh that and back then at risk was a

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particular term of students who would eventually either end up dead or in prison and so that being my background and I moved around quite a bit I um I

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saw it as um I don't know part of my responsibility was to get to know the community uh ingratiate myself to the

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community. So I started to tell that story about my background. It kind of culminated my my freshman year when long story short my brothers jumped the

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principal at my school and then we were all expelled. Uh I wasn't there for it.

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I still say I was not guilty. Uh but I was found guilty of aggravated assault on the principal without a trial. uh without me being present at the trial

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and I was put into a marine institute and from a young age uh seeing the the examples that I had around me I knew I

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was on a path to prison or jail. That's what I been had been ingrained in me over and over again. I looked up and now I'm out of regular school. I'm in a

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marine institute and um I have no chances of doing what I aspired to. I always wanted to be a lawyer since I was watching Johnny Cochran in LA. I want to

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be a lawyer and I was like lawyers I don't know any but lawyers don't go to jail they go to law school and so I have to figure out a path towards that.

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Um once I was expelled from school I moved in with my grandmother. Uh back in California I was living in Florida at the time moved back to California uh

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with that mindset and I was given the opportunity to reset new setting uh a ch I'm not all around my brothers or some of my other influences. I have a chance

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to re um reimagine who who I wanted to be.

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Um and I decided that I wanted to be an academic.

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And so uh and uh when I made that choice and was given space to kind of redefine myself, I showed up as an academic

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although like I had just gotten out of marine institute. So I was muscular. I had done nothing but train and hit weights. I was moving now back home and

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everybody knew I had just gotten out of some sort of jail program. So, I looked like a gang member and they were very reluctant to let me into my school given my background and my rap I've been

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expelled with no clear explanation other than he jumped a principal with his brothers. Right. Wow.

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Uh principal took a chance on me because I was big and he wanted me on his football team and he let me in school and uh I I I performed on the football

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field. I was the captain of the team, but I made sure I showed up in the classroom. Yeah. And for me, that was a way of defining what people would say about me. you looked at me and I I

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appeared to be a gang member. If you listen to me, I was very into poetry. I was into reading. I taught Bible study at my school and I had straight A's. Um

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that decision allowed a lot of people to say, you know, this person is trying to lift himself up. We're going to invest in them. Yeah.

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And so, um I got a lot of scholarships, not not only athletic scholarships that got to UCLA and other places to play

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football. I got academic scholarships to places like Morehouse. At the time I didn't even know what Morehouse was besides, you know, a movie, Boys in the

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Hood. That's where the Trey goes in the end. Yeah.

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And so, um, I take that I go to school. I go to Morehouse, get an acceptance letter, I get a full ride.

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Uh, long there's a there's another testimonial story there. But uh at although being expelled in the ninth grade, having no ninth grade year,

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having a 0.333 GPA, uh be able to flip that uh uh by making the decision to redefine myself and having space to do that, an

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environment where I could do that, I found myself on this historic campus and I have always just been extremely grateful to be there. And so as soon as

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I showed up to the west end of Atlanta, I looked for other kids like me. I went to the local schools. I went to the there's Brown Middle School, there's elementary schools there. I started a

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mentoring program we call mafia which is ministry and faith and action and the idea was you all can be here look this is an example nothing you all have gone

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through I haven't gone through I've been expelled I've carried guns I've sold drugs I come from a very very dark gang related background and I decided one day

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I didn't want that you can make that decision today and so uh my calling started then I was like God I think you

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took me out of crazy circumstances and And for whatever reason, I we're going to get into this. Yeah.

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You given me a superpower. I don't fully understand it, but I realized it back then, man.

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And it was so I don't know, the calling was so almost overwhelming. Every time I spoke, people would stop and listen, and I didn't know why. It was scary. I was a

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big 6'3, uh, you know, 15 year old with a deep voice and my accent was a little different than everyone's around me. So,

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that that could be a part of why they listen. But my voice itself scared me.

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And um because of how influential it turned out to be and no matter where God moves that voice, whatever setting, you

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know, it always uh causes people to come and listen and uh they call me to lead.

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And so I I accepted that responsibility as an anointing uh that I was just running with.

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You know, you you you told me you're telling me the story and I I you know what you can't see, but I have goo I have goosebumps, right? I have

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goosebumps for for lots of different reasons. Um, and a lot of people that I that I have come and sit across from me, I know a lot of their story.

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Um, and so maybe I didn't know certain parts of it, but that that story is powerful because and you think about it, you have, and just so everybody knows, we have some fellows fellas in the room.

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We'll talk about uh what you do there, but so they're watching um and digesting this podcast, which is amazing. But there's [clears throat] a couple things

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you said that that are interesting. So I I talk about boxes, I hate boxes, right? People see me, they see you. They automatically figure uh try to assume what you are.

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They try to pick winners and losers before the race is even run. Before knowing what's coming out of your mouth or what product you're delivering.

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So, I love that. I love that early on you were a disruptor. You're the absolute disruptor. You know, you're like, "No, no, no. I'm not going to

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accept that this is what what um I know y'all think this is how it's going to go, but I'm going to tell you how it's going to go." So do you think that that

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that upbringing which is so powerful you you you don't it's almost like you

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went through it but you don't want it to happen to other people. It seems that as you mentioned the story that you're kind of like

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I want to make sure that nobody has to go through what I went through. Yeah.

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Um which is which is in that's interesting, right? Because you went through and it created you. That's right.

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But you also don't want people to have to go through it.

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Yeah. So, I'm raising sons now and two daughters. How different ages?

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Well, let me start. I have a 16-y old, a 15y old, a 13year-old, a 12year-old, an 11year-old. I'm in a blended family. So,

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I also have a 21-year-old uh son for my my wife.

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And so, full house and um I am grateful for every one of my experiences. In fact, I think part of my superpower is

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that I'm able to relate to people. And the reason I can relate to people is I've lived everywhere. I know what it's like to talk to, you know, lawyers for

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Arco and for the Rockefellers. Um, and I can hold my own in that in that room.

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Uh, I know what it like it's like to talk to somebody who's homeless or who's in who's serving life in prison because I've been I'm familiar with that setting as well.

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And so, um, uh, I think that that that has allowed me those experiences has allowed me to really be able to relate to people. Yeah. And bring them in.

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You know, I I tell everybody people that are watching know this. I hold grudges.

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big grudges like I mean I I built a whole brand around what a and so for the fellows that are here I was not the likely candidate to be in the CEO role

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and um a coach I had gave me less than 1% chance everybody out there you guys have heard 100 times but gave me less than 1% chance to be uh the CEO and so I

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built a whole brand around less than 1% because I was just you know I just feel like we try to pick people before the races run but

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um has anybody that you can remember you don't have to name name names. We can protect the innocent here, but have they doubted you? Have they looked at you and

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said, "No, no way, man. No way, Lee. You ain't this is not this is not what you're going to do?" And almost at every step of my life, right? And so, when I

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told, you know, the the kids, I told my grandma, I just want to go back to regular school. I know they want me to be be in continuation school. And she

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says, "They're not going to let you in there, sweetie." And it's like, "Well, let's just sit down and have a meeting with them." And they let me back into the school. uh when um and and that was

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you know a choice by academic um um at every aspect right now what I do is

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take on police violence cases it's the vast majority of my case well less than 1% of officer involved shootings result in an officer being prosecuted

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and people know that so when I signed up for example Jordan Edwards was killed in in the Dallas Fort Worth area in 20 uh 2017 was 15 years old a cop had never in

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Dallas County been prosecuted for killing a black kid so a lot People said, "Hey, we we see you making these bombastic statements, marching your

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clients down to the prosecutor's office, demanding justice. You're setting these people up for failure." And I've been warned about that a lot. You're getting people's hopes to up. You're demanding

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murder charges as opposed to lesser charges. And you're not able to deliver that. You don't even know where you are.

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This Texas boy came here like you you can't come here talking that kind of nonsense. So, every case was a surefire

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Roy Oliver who murdered Jordan Edward Shootwalk. He was convicted of murder.

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He was the first officer convicted of murder in Dallas County. Amber Guyger, a white woman who feared for her life and walked into the wrong apartment and was very apologetic.

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She should walk. According to all the pundits, I I shouldn't even ask for murder in that case. Although she shot an innocent man eating a bowl of ice

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cream on his couch. Uh I shouldn't even ask for murder. And I try to upset those each each and every time. You know, murder is murdering no matter who the

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victim is and who the who the defendant is. So So I'm going to be I'm going to be controversial. want to be controversial here and maybe not controversial for you

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but I think anytime [clears throat] that you have difficult conversations there's always sort of sides to it and

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so it's got to be a pretty hard thing or maybe not but if you are going to the people that are here to serve and

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protect us the police right I mean again at the end of the day if we're in trouble call the police do do you feel

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like you've that that community sees you different.

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Do they see you do they see you like, hey, Lee is really just trying to advocate for these people who have been in these bad situations and and and you

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know had injustice happen or do they see you as as somebody who is controversial and and uh maybe even the enemy?

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Yeah. Yeah. They see me I think there's a stereotype for my position that exists that uh people expect me to fill. The first thing is everything is about race.

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Even when it's not about race, it has to be about race. Uh they see somebody who's really just here for the money.

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You know, lawyers are supposed to wear nice suits and get a lot of money. And if you're a successful lawyer, that's what you're doing. You're getting a lot of money. So, you know, don't come here talking these platitudes about justice and equality. You don't care about that.

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You care about the bottom line because if I give you a $10 million check to go away, you you'll take it and justice can stay on the table. is and so I hear

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those stereotypes but I show up as a person who again I just feel lucky to be here and I know that I'm here for for a particular purpose and it's going to be

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different than you know I just I'm not the one who signed up for money.

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Um that's not how how this profession works. It costs too much to bring these kind of cases where less than 1% of them even proceed to trial, right?

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Uh to make to make this uh niche firm about that. So I try to upset upset those uh preconceived notions.

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Yeah. Yeah. That's I mean that's I feel like that's uh every day you know in in in in the healthc care world and even in

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other worlds you know we talked about this I walk into rooms and it's like you know people don't always uh make the right assumptions they're always

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stereotyping in respect to and I think even the way you know you communicate the way you talk you know sometimes I'm

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Canadian sometimes I'm Jamaican and then other times I'm I'm I sound like I'm from New York which you know I lived in New York for four years so I mean I think there's all that, you know, the

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kids call it code switching, you know, whatever. I think there's all that code switching that that we we do and have to do.

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If you were if you were to go back knowing what you went through, knowing people that have doubted you, what would you change?

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What would you change about your own like you're changing the lives of young people? We'll talk about that, but would you change anything about the way

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you came up or the way you have interacted with the world so far? uh the early part of my career stepping out and

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doing some things that uh that were had to be different. It had to be out of the norm for me going to Morehouse College.

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I did it uh uh I didn't overcome the fear. I did it. I brought fear along with me.

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And so fear was a motivating factor at Morehouse. Look, I'm not qualified to be here. I'm the kid who was just expelled a few years ago. These guys are from a

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better pedigree. So I got to work harder. I got to push further. I got to bury myself in Club Woody Library.

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that's what we call the library down there and and and um and outperform everybody just to keep up.

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Uh I bring that same I brought that same fear into my practice, you know. Okay. Um you want to be a civil rights lawyer.

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That means you want to challenge some societal norms. People have challenged these ideas before, people that you admire, attorneys, uh activist leaders,

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they've been killed and incarcerated for it. You're going to be killed and incarcerated for this. Take the fear with you. Uh when I moved into my specific calling.

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So, this is my preparation. When I moved in my my specific calling and I saw the, you know, Texas bar, first thing they did when I got here was file a criminal lawsuit against me and try to put me in

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prison for eight years for practicing law in the state of Texas for practicing civil rights law in the state of Texas.

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Um, and the fear was back. It was like, "All right, here we go. This is what they do. This is their system. This is what you're trying to dismantle and rebuild." Um, so, you know, my lawyer at

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the time, he said, "Pack a toothbrush cuz you're in Colin County. you're probably going to go to jail, but we'll get you out. Um I show and um yeah, so I

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showed up and then I watched how my training prepared me for those moments cuz Yeah. Uh I followed Thood Marshall to Texas.

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Yeah.

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And Thood Marshall uh wasounded by a group called the UPLC, the Unauthorized Practice of Law Committee, because he

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wasn't at the time a local attorney. And so they uh filed the same criminal charges against him that they filed against me. and he argued in court, his

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lawyers argued in court and to set precedent. I knew about that precedent.

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So, I showed up saying, "All right, well, the same old attacks, but here's what the ancestors did. Here's what the generation before me did to overcome it.

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Uh, I'm just going to follow that model." And then the success after, so I beat those charges almost easily. Yeah. I I

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sent these uh in a county that didn't send cops to prison. And I sent Roy helped to send Roy Oliver to prison, Amber Gyer to prison, Aaron Dean to

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prison, and now cops are going to jail for murdering citizens in a region they had never done before. At this point, I no longer have the fear. I say, "Look,

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uh uh I have a strategy and a plan, a calling to do this work. I've prepared myself to do this work. I'm just going to do it." And um and I expect success.

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And um and so uh uh although fear has been a companion up to a certain point

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uh it it's the story of uh David and Goliath. I killed a lion when nobody's watching. You killed a bear. Nobody the book is right behind you by Malcolm Gladwell.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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Um and so I'm not going to let this giant come and say anything to me like you don't understand. I killed a bear with my bare hands, you know.

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So I love this. I love I love what you said, Jordan. you know that this this is huge. I think a lot of people talk about

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overcoming fear. A lot of people talk about, you know, getting rid of fear, you know, phobias, desensitization,

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right? If you're scared of snakes, go hold a snake.

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You actually say carry the fear with you. That's that is that is super powerful.

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And what it means is that to me, I think it takes more courage, right? I mean, I'm I'm looking at the fellas. It takes more courage to take

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fear with you than to say, "Okay, I'm going to get over this because you you're doing the work and you still have that fear." Yeah.

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Do you do you So, I we we talk pre-show a little bit and uh you know, those of you who read the book

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know that I end the book actually a lot of different ways, right? I'm pointing out all these different things, these different inconsistencies, these

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[clears throat] boxes in society we create. And I want to hopefully inspire people to disrupt those boxes, not just the ones that society makes, but the ones we even make for ourselves.

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And I end the book in a weird sort of way and talk about being uh pulled over uh a couple times, right? But the the

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they happened a ton of times throughout my life. But the most powerful times for me was one in college where I was actually choked out at choked

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unconscious uh by a police officer because they thought I was the one doing the bad thing. And then the other one is where I was at gunpoint. I was driving

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home in a BMW in California uh from work in the morning after working a night shift and a a county

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sheriff from my county followed me home no it's actually in Fresno Fresno County

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and uh pulled me over at gunpoint had me on the ground it was it just it's surreal like I talk about it in the book it's surreal because I'm handcuffed face

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down in you know blowing gravel I say blowing gravel and he's got me at gunpoint point and my neighbors are

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driving by and you know, look honey, I see I told you. I told I told you he's not a doctor. That's Dr. Dre. [laughter] Yeah.

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But um so so and and I talked to you a little bit about my son who was reluctant to drive.

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I mean, I [clears throat] was you I told you I was at 13. I'm trying to steal the family car. Like let's roll. Let's go down, you know. But he he was reluctant

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to drive because of kind of what happened. I want to how does that as far as our

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development of young black men uh you know we both were there a long time ago longer for me than you

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but how does how does that affect their development? I mean I you know I think if people are people are looking at it and saying yeah uh there are situations

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where kids are doing bad um there are situations where kids are doing nothing and they still have these outcomes. But doesn't that affect it seems to affect your development if

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you're worried about sometimes being protected and now you got somebody who may you have to be sensitive to the fact

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that they may see you as a criminal and maybe not this person that needs a help. Yeah. Yeah.

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I know it's a long question but I just I you know that's something that I personally struggle with.

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Yeah. I I I I I do believe that impacts our children and it's something that So, we live in the deadliest police culture

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in the industrialized world. There's no modern nation that kills or incarcerates more of its citizens period. We are number one with that. We've been number

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one for a long time. Uh and in Dr. King gave the I have a dream speech, most I have a dream speech was about police

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violence. We don't talk about that. Uh we focus on the color and all the different babies holding hands, but most of it was about police violence.

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Um, and so in order to adjust to the reality of this uniquely militarized domestic police that's more like a militia, nobody else polices this way.

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It's very strange if you go outside of the country and look at their policing system. They have found a way to enforce laws and police their citizens and

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create safe communities without killing and incarcerating so many people. Right?

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This is a uniquely American problem. And of course, the first people we blame is the victims. we blamed uh black kids.

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And so I I used to be a a youth minister at a local church here. Uh not a youth minister, I led a a small group of kids

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for Bible study every Sunday. And one day, Jordan Edwards, a 15-year-old in our community, was killed. And um um the

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family called me and I represented the young man and his family in a civil case against uh the city uh in a criminal

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case against the officer. Well, when I went to church that Sunday to teach the lesson, they handed me the lesson. It was about the kid, Jordan Edwards, and

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they were saying, it was essentially asking my students to tell them all the things that Jordan could have done to save his life.

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Uh, Jordan was murdered. He did exactly what his dad told him to do. He was at a high school party, not doing anything wrong. No drugs, no alcohol. It's not a

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cool party. I wouldn't have even been there. It was a boring dance party with a house full of kids. Yeah. Yeah, he got in the car uh when the police arrived to

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tell him there was too many kids because of nose disturbance. He got in the passenger seat and he went to drive home. The cop decided that the car was

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threatening and that it was coming at one of his partners, which was a complete lie. And he lifted a high power rifle and he shot him in the face.

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And I had to go to church after seeing his body and um recovering his body with his family and watching the heartbreak

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from his father and his mom. And the church wanted me to teach our kids how to survive the police encounter. Nobody thought we really need to get a hold of

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policing. Like we need to retrain these officers. They're killing 15-year-old little boys who are doing nothing wrong.

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And I think we hear that a lot. We hear society point to our children and say, "Man, listen, you guys can't you can't do this. You can't do that." And you and

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I were told that. I was told as a kid, "Hey, man, I'm sorry. You're just too big. Your voice is too deep." Yeah.

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You got to humble yourself. Yes. You know, you got to look down at the ground. you got to walk to the other side of the street. Yeah. Because you you're the problem somehow.

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If they fear you, it's that's your fault and you have to deal with the consequences of it. And it's a it's a reality that I tell my

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boys cuz my boys are bigger than me, you know, and they are intimidating. Big, deep voice, highly confident, intelligent kids. Uh and that's a problem.

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Yeah.

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And unfortunately, I have to warn my sons that's a problem. But I'm I try to tell them that they're not the problem.

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Society is the problem. when we're working to change society.

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Yeah, that that's that's I mean I I you know a lot of situations where um I remember looking in the mirror

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and working on facial expressions because you got and I'm not I mean I'm not a I'm not a big guy but I'm an energetic guy and a lot of times when

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you're energetic so I had to tamp that down, you know, speak calmly, quietly, you know. Yeah. Don't don't don't frown, you know.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] No, my my my trial coach, Eddie Obama, great attorney, uh, Innocence Project

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Philadelphia. Um, and I came out of Morehouse 2, Temple, and I tried out for the trial team. It was one of the nation's leading trial teams, and I knew

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I was a good speaker. I knew I was authorative speaker because I had this voice that people had always been.

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So, I go and I try out for the team and everyone's blown away, per normal. I'm used to this. I'm a good speaker.

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And he comes to me and says, "Man, I really want you on my team, but you're going to scare the out of a jury." Wow. You know, you're just too big and scary. Yeah.

27:46

And so, I mean, I had to recite a poem for him and be like, "No, I can change the tone." You know, [laughter] like I can go solve, right? Four score.

27:55

I do want to ask you this question that I'm you I find, Jordan. I I usually don't hesitate. Um, but I'm I'm

28:03

hesitating because I'm really kind of thinking of the answer as I go.

28:08

Yeah. So, um, do you think I I've had those experiences. We've talked about this

28:15

before. I was born in Canada. I was in Toronto till I was 18.

28:19

I've had these experiences in in Toronto. I've had these experience in New York, in California. It's really,

28:26

you know, diffuse. Do you think that Do you think that it's a training when you have these bad

28:33

situations? The majority of I'd say police are trying to do the right thing. Correct. Did you do you feel like that? Do you feel like it's a

28:42

individual challenge or do you think it's a systemic challenge when you have bad outcomes? Because And the reason I'm

28:49

asking, let's explain what I mean. So some people say, "Hey, Lee Lee Lee's doing this stuff.

28:56

It's not supporting police." Mhm.

28:59

But the truth is is that you're actually supporting police because you're trying to you're trying to fix a system that may put them in a bad light

‍

29:08

that is that am I mischaracterizing it?

29:10

No, that's exactly it. The the first time I had to do work in Fort Worth, Texas is when I first was introduced to Texas. They back the blue. Uh and they

29:19

wear big cowboy hats, the citizens and cops alike, and they don't want to hear any of that nonsense. And so I represent a young woman named Jackie Craig who was

29:27

brutalized by the police and uh we went out to the rodeo and we brought signs that said back the blue. We got a bunch of people hunked us. On the other sign

29:35

it says by prosecuting bad cops. That's how you back the blue. You prosecute the bad ones. And so they were hunking and we flipped the sign and they were like okay you know that's not what we meant.

29:45

We're not support but yes you can back the blue by prosecing the profession. Uh I do think it's a systemic problem.

29:52

American policing was about 800,000 officers all over the country. Um I I don't think there's a such thing as a

30:00

good cop. I also don't think there's a such thing as a bad cop. The problem is their mission is bad. What makes us different than every other modern nation

30:07

than Japan? Japan has all the drugs that we have opioid crisis. They have all the gangs that we have. They have all the poverty concentrations of large tenementss probably been. Yeah.

30:18

Uh they deal with all that and their police killed nobody last year. They shot six bullets, right? Uh that's because their mission is is they're

30:27

actual peace officers. And so if there's a disruption to the peace, they don't go in to assassinate the target. That's not even their goal. That would that would

30:35

get everybody fired. Their goal is to contain the the disruption to the peace uh uh using the uh the least amount of

30:43

forced uh possible. Right. Our our mission is we've we've started a war on drugs which grew our prison uh system

30:51

over the last 30 years from about a 100,000 people in prison 150,000 people in prison all over the United States to

30:59

today there's 7.6 six million people in prison um probation or parole. Right? So that number grew substantially because

31:07

we decided uh after the civil rights movement at the end of the 60s and 70s and as we were integrating America that we would have to upcriminalization of blackness

31:15

itself, up criminalization of deviation from standard whiteness. So the drug use uh we criminalized uh the drugs that

31:24

were popular among black folks while allowing the drugs that you know white folks either legalizing it um or making

31:32

the crime substantially less. And we intentionally built this system um that the the goal is to incarcerate a large

31:41

pop part of our uh impoverished population. We incarcerate people be for being sick uh for having mental health issues. We incarcerate people for being poor.

31:50

uh instead of dealing with programs for poverty or mental health programs or medical programs, our goal is incarceration. And if your job is to

31:58

take free people and put them in a cage, you're going to get the body counts that we have. Right. Right.

32:02

It's a bad mission. No other nation shares this mission with us.

32:05

Yeah. It's it's interesting. So you're you know, when you look at it, instead of I love I like I actually like this a lot.

32:12

It's not you're not focused on the front end. It's sort of like, you know, CEO, right? you're focused on the mission and the values and the mi, you know, the stuff I showed you guys um coming in.

32:21

You're focused more on that rather than, you know, sort of like, hey, it's just it's just um you know, this training or

32:29

it's just this this this person, you know, Malcolm uh Jordan, I'm thinking I want I was going to Yeah.

32:35

I think I know what you're going to Yeah. Yeah. So, Malcolm So, we had Malcolm Gladwell on this podcast twice, actually, which is which is amazing. um

32:43

you know like you know Malcolm like you you know you're my hero you know that right? Um but but he's writing a new book and the book is actually it's

32:51

called the American way of killing and so this is this is I mean as you describe I'm writing a book called Killing Our Neighbors.

32:57

Oh okay. So okay well I mean you should I got to talk to Gladwell. I mean he's a big inspiration and quick and what he's saying is what you're

33:05

talking about is exactly what you're talking about. Of course, you know how he does tells amazing stories and them like likely with data and that sort of thing.

33:12

But the idea that as a crime is for crime wise, America's doesn't have a lot of crime relative [clears throat] to like Europe.

33:21

Yeah.

33:21

Right. Europe is Europe has a lot of crime. Like you go to Europe and you you got to lock up your wallet. You got to do all this other stuff. So from a crime perspective, we have the same or less.

33:31

But from a killing perspective, from a violence perspective, we are astronomically more violent. And you know, I'm sure

33:39

he's going to go into the reasons for that. There's, you know, we can look at our history.

33:43

Yeah. He went a little further to say to the point where we actually have gun uh was that gunshot wound expert.

33:51

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like I mean, we he talked about nobody else.

33:53

Yeah. Dr. Cornwall who's at Howard University. The fact that he's an expert in gun vi the fact that we have experts in gun violence is like

34:02

you know that you that's a uniquely American thing.

34:05

Um so anyway [clears throat] I think that that's fascinating. Um the way you describe something that I think people could get very controversial about. Oh

34:13

it's you know protecting my friend or you know you're not you're you're anti police. you're really talking about. No, fundamentally the way we're approaching,

34:20

you know, apprehension. The way we're approaching stopping crime is more of a, you know, I always think fascinating when you watch TV,

34:28

you know, and you watch TV and somebody commits a crime and there's this huge massive chase. Like even if it's something like there's no risk to

34:37

somebody, it's like, okay, well, you you're going to get this guy eventually.

34:40

There's a camera somewhere. Like, do you have to? Right. The idea of a police chase is fascinating.

34:46

That's right. I mean that's that's what got Johnny Johnny Cochran famous. It was the old J chasing the news at 30 mph.

34:53

Right. Right. Right. Right. And the news that the 405 but yeah I um when I you look at police and I have a good friend Edwin Raymond

35:01

who is the sheriff of New York. Um and he was a police officer in New York at at first and it was very controversial because

35:09

he decided he was going to change the mission that he would wear the uniform but the mission would be different. His mission was quotas. Yeah, you hide in the subway. You wait for

35:18

people to jump the turn style and you pop out. That way you get the arrest. That's someone who committed a crime.

35:22

You as a peace officer get to enforce the law. He says, "Well, if I stand outside of the turn style, they won't jump it." Yeah.

35:30

And then I can prevent the crime. I don't have to arrest folks and now we have peace in this. Got it. Got it. Fired for that or demoted for that.

35:37

Like, no, we told you to hide so you can get your tickets up. But he that's one officer who who rejected the system and

35:45

as a result he was punished for it and and it was thanks to Mayor Madami uh that he's getting a chance to redeem himself and check out his book an an

35:53

inconvenient cop uh Edwin Raymond. But that's how I look at policing. I wanted to be a cop before I wanted to be a

36:01

lawyer. I wanted to be a cop before I met Johnny Cochran and the rest of them wanted to be a cop. Um the

36:07

problem is is that when you go to um you go to you know I went to law school. Yeah.

36:13

And most of the time in law school I um I was on my feet. I was a trial attorney. I went to a trial law school.

36:18

I was captain of the trial team. Won all the trial awards. Yes. I'm bragging. I was ready to go to trial. Right. And so when you got out of law school and I

36:26

became a trial attorney, no one was surprised, right? 70 75% of the police officers time in policemies is on a gun range.

36:36

Yeah.

36:36

Okay. We train them to shoot. Shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot. Uh after that, you go hands-on, right? And then you get handtoh hand combat.

36:43

That's more like 5%. 80% of their training is use of force. Yeah.

36:48

Very little of their training. And I found because I used to be a school teacher in Camden, New Jersey of all places. Most dangerous city in America at the time, the poorest city in

36:55

America. And I was like, I know history well. I just got my degree from Morehouse. I've studied history. I can teach about history. I don't know how to

37:03

deal with this young girl who just saw her father murder her mom in front of her and then murder himself.

37:08

This little girl has told me that her father for the last month has been walking her to school every week.

37:13

He's been dead for a month. So, there's no way that that's possible. But that's her reality. Cuz I asked her like, "Why has your disposition changed?" "Oh, the

37:21

conversation I had with my dad on the way to school pissed me off." And I'm like, "Oh, okay. Well, tell your dad." I said, "I didn't know. Nobody knew about all this, right?

37:28

Um I was ready to teach her history, speech and debate. That's what I was trained for.

37:33

Uh there was no class about um you know, there was no bedside manner about educating. Uh there was no way to how to

37:40

deal with domestic issues at home. There was nothing about um um um the different

37:48

kind of learning. Well, there was different kind of learning styles, but I I had very little like social work training that prepared me for the

37:55

classroom. Um similarly uh law enforcement agents in this country are trained to be hammers. Yeah.

‍

37:59

And the saying is to to a hammer everything looks like a nail. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

38:07

Um and it's a bad mission. You know that's it won't change until we change the mission.

38:12

Yeah. That's I mean that that's that's brilliant. I mean it's brilliant. Like that's brilliant. I I've never heard anybody describe it. And I think when

38:19

you when you frame it as a mission, it's much less controversial. much less.

38:24

It's really just about okay. Just like the mission we have at Vitudi, we we want to improve lives. If we change that mission, people are going to move in a in a different way. That's right.

38:32

So, I I do want to talk about, you know, you mentioned your teaching, you mentioned your kids.

38:36

We you have a bunch of fellows here in the office. There's three of them here in the studio and they're exchanging.

38:41

So, you guys will see it's a little different. if we get distracted, we start looking over there. It's because um you have a bunch of fellows here and

38:48

I I'm I'm I'm interested to hear why did you know your description of why you felt because I

38:56

mean let's face it, right? Any community, you know, whatever Jamaican Jamaican community, uh the the Dallas community,

39:05

which I'm a part of now, you have problems in those communities. you have, you know, limited access or you have ways you can do things better, but you're

39:13

taking the bull by the horn, so to speak, with this fellowship, right? And with what you do in the community. So, tell me more about the fellows and and

39:21

what you do for them. Um, so most law firms have an internship program where you can come work in the law office, push some papers, uh, learn

39:29

about, shadow me, and learn about what we did. In fact, that's more or less how I ran my program last year. And that's great because you get to train

39:36

individual students uh and they get that exposure that students like me would have thought was incredible to be able to see what it looks like to do this do

39:45

this profession on something other than TV. Uh but I realized that I'm most effective because of my background in

39:53

education, because of my background in organizing, because of mafia and in undergrad, the ministry and faith action mentoring program. All of those things

40:02

allowed me to be a better practitioner and they I use them as a part of my litigation strategy really being able to move in those communities. Uh and I

40:11

wanted students to be able to do that to see that. So we've planted ourselves in South Dallas, a historic black community. Um uh we've rented out a

40:20

space right there in in the center of the community. We made relationships there. The students are working hard to serve the women's shelters, check in

40:27

with the schools, uh coordinate with the local businesses, invite them to our programs, educate the community about their rights and about this resource

40:35

that exists for them that there are people who are trained to advocate on behalf of indigent folks. So, you know, we're at at a food truck and a guy walks

40:44

up to me and talks about being forced to work with no pay and it says, "Well, if you check in with that office, we can help you, right? uh that there's a place for you for you to bring that

40:52

and that gives the students the chance to to own it, right? This is their community. Yeah. Uh this is their uh their summer program and it's not just

41:01

following me around, which I think is important. I think they could learn a lot from that alone, but uh they get to start to become advocates themselves and

41:09

seeing how we pair that with the law, you know. So that's that's amazing. That's amazing. I mean the, you know, again, back to the my

41:17

theme from before, we're giving people opportunities that we didn't necessarily have ourselves. Um, which which hopefully is elevating that next

41:25

generation. So So you you have this young well, I was going to say little, but you wouldn't you wasn't little. Uh,

41:33

but you have this kid growing up in South Central. you you you were able to navigate your way through this, you

41:41

know, build build essentially a platform but also an empire. I call it an empire because I feel that's what it is.

‍

41:42

Um, now people are out there looking at this and saying, "Okay, what's special about Lee?" Like what's different? And you know where I'm going

41:56

with this, right? I always ask everybody who's on the show, what is your superpower? Yeah.

42:00

And and a lot of people again just to you know Jordan you've heard it 700 times but I think a superpower is special. It's something unique. It's

42:08

something unique to you. Um that when people see it like oh that's Lee you know. So what would you say your superpower is?

42:18

I would say my superpower is actually shows up as an inability but an inability to look away.

42:25

uh when I see something even from a kid when I saw you know Latasha Harland killed in my community uh this little girl clear killed at the liquor store.

42:36

Um you know the first thing I thought was because I saw it all over the news.

42:41

It was one of the first things go viral after Rodney King was a lot of kids die here. Um I see memorials on every corner

42:48

on every block, right? Um um it seems that the media only pays attention, the world only pays attention

42:56

when there's a racial dynamic going, right? And so um um I watch that pattern play itself out. It's something I

43:04

studied at Morehouse. We studied about the world's response to genocide, right?

43:09

When the world says, "Hey, there's a terrible genocide going on in Indonesia and what's the timetable for them to respond to that?" Then there's a terrible genocide going on in Sudan.

43:17

that can go on for years before the world says, "Hey, this is a terrible genocide that we got to get involved uh get involved in and it stop."

43:24

Um I I could not look away from um Rodney King. It stuck with me. I got to know his daughter

43:33

uh over years. Um uh I left law school pissed off because I graduated in 2012

43:39

and Trayvon Martin was killed by George Zimmerman. He walked and I watched those lawyers mishandle that case and I couldn't look away. I had to get

43:47

to know his family. I had to and so I was I was ready when I had a law degree. Yeah.

43:54

And I saw something that I could respond to and I had an opportunity to respond to and I had the training and position to respond to it. It's like all right, I want to show

44:02

I'm going to show those lawyers in Florida who let Zimmerman off how you're supposed to handle this case, how you handle it in the media, uh how you handle it in the courtroom, how you

44:10

handle the evidence. Uh, I'm not going to look away from the obvious things.

44:14

It's obvious to me that George Zimmerman should have gone to prison. It's obvious that the people who killed Tamir Rice should at least been indicted. Um, and a

44:22

lot of my friends, they'll tell you like, I've started unfollowing the stuff you post in content. I'm your friend. I love you. I can't see that. I have to look away.

44:31

I can't see that.

44:32

Um, I couldn't look away. And we'll get into the mental health consequences of that. I was carrying trauma for a long time.

44:38

Wow. Um and um so it's a it's a gift because I'm carrying it and the only way I can deal with it is to try to bring justice to it,

44:46

try to resolve the issue. And so my form of mental health therapy is bringing justice to communities, you know.

44:54

Yeah. You you weren't supposed to say all this profound stuff. You're making [laughter] my job difficult. I'm getting uncomfortable over here. Um

45:03

the inability to look away that what so in the beginning you were talking about how you use your superpower to get you through what you went through. Was that was that it?

45:13

Yeah. Well, so there's two things.

45:16

There's uh there's an inability to look away and this is funny. I'll tell you a story about my early days as an attorney. I joined the Cochran firm and

45:23

I wanted to be a Cochran firm attorney because he was a civil rights lawyer.

45:26

The firm that I was with in Philadelphia was doing mostly personal injury work and someone would be injured or there was a building that fell literally on

45:35

top of a Salvation Army and collapsed it uh building and killed several people in the building that I was next to as a personal injury lawyer. My lawyer, my boss is like, "Get your ass out there and go get us some clients." Right?

45:46

And um um one of my mentors, I won't say his name because of what he did. He said, "Oh, we're just going to go to the funeral." Right? And so he pulls up to

45:54

the funeral and I I sit in the background. I think this is very tacky showing up these people's funerals and I

46:02

have a chance to talk to people and people are uh disarmed around me. I have a common touch where they trust me. Um

46:11

and it's it's I've seen other attorneys talk to people and they talk to them in a very business sense. They talk to them about how much money they might get out

46:20

of the case. uh they talk to them and it's a sales pitch and I actually see people uh I I relate uh I mourn with

46:28

them and that was the difficult part about my job is that I'm an empath. I take it all in. Yeah. Yeah.

46:33

And I think people sense that. So that's part of the the superpower. I don't look away. Instead I'm absorbing and I'm carrying it with you.

46:40

Um and so yeah, we should talk about mental health.

46:43

Yeah. No, I want to go there. I want to go there. I want to I want to ask I want to see if we can find somebody uh for us to call and ask them about those

46:50

superpower one which is you know inability to look look away but also the ability for you to absorb and for people to pour into you or pour what's

46:58

happening into you but I do I want to go somewhere because I sense something I'm sensing a lot here. So my my base energy my my the core of my energy is anger.

47:09

Yeah.

47:09

I'm just telling y'all it's anger. Like I mean when you see me on the stage or you see me I'm in the podcast and then I'm looking at I'm like oh you know okay

47:18

you know 12 12,000 views why isn't it 15? You know what I mean? Like my base and when I get angry I get super productive.

47:27

I'm sensing a little bit of anger in you.

47:29

Is that just am I am I am I misreading it?

47:32

And when I say when I say anger not you know it's not like I want to go fight somebody but it's like I want to fight. [laughter] Okay. Okay.

47:39

I want to go fight someone. I had three progressions of the the things that I carried. I carried fear at first and that motivated me to work really hard

47:47

because I didn't want to fail, right? Um so the fear uh allowed me to get into the position to be effective to have the

47:55

responsibility. Once I had the responsibility, once I was in position, it was anger when it killed

48:06

when I watched the system kill a 15-year-old [clears throat] from my community and his parents came to me and

48:13

then I watched him justify it by calling him.

48:17

Sorry. [clears throat] [snorts] No. And they assassinated his character. He was a good kid. Jordan is what I'm talking about. Was very angry.

48:25

Um, and it kept me up, stressed me out, led me to depression, but it made me work. I was going to get that I was

48:32

going to get that cop in the city. And I did, and I was proud of that. I was driven by anger. Anger will burn you out. It'll kill you. It'll burn you out.

48:40

Um, I move in love now. It's the same.

48:43

It's It comes from the same place. I love our community. I want I want it protected. I want it I want these kids and my kids to just

48:50

have a fair shot. And I love them. Uh, and that gives me urgency because it's not okay. The society, the way um

49:01

our laws are set up, the way that we police, the way that we deal with um my community is not okay and I love them too much to allow it to be that way. So,

49:10

yeah. All right. Napkins, you got look, but I struggled with that for a while because I like the anger.

49:16

Anger feels better. Uh, and the community loves anger. They like that I was angry. They called me uh, you know, my early part. They was like, "Well, you know, Lee's going to put his foot on

49:24

their neck. He don't care. He'll tell her that like it is." And, and I was praised to be like a junkyard dog.

49:31

And I carried that as long as I could. Yeah.

49:34

Uh, and it started to affect me mentally, carrying around that much anger, all I was angry with my kids. I was angry with my wife. I was angry at my household, you know.

49:42

And so, uh, I had to move I literally had to let that go. Move past the anger and try to find another source to operate out of. And I I consider that

49:50

love now. So those are my my three phases.

49:52

Yeah. Fear, anger, love. I'm I'm making the transition.

49:57

I try I'm trying to make that transition. Um because anger anger is so it's so mobilizing.

50:06

Yeah, we know that, right? We know that. We see that in the mob mentality, right? We see how many people march out of love.

50:11

Nobody march. Let's have a march, you know, out of love.

50:15

Yeah. And it's part of the mama mentality that I love. What I loved about Kobe watching him as a young um young student, excuse me, out of LA

50:23

was that he seemed to move with this fierce intensity. It wasn't getting your face angry. It was seething with how dare you

50:32

not allow me to win. Like, how dare you stand in my way. You don't know how great I am. And um that anger that that

50:39

kind of I don't know. It's um it's it's I feel like Kobe copied it from Jordan. Jordan had this.

50:46

I think I think he copied it from Jordan, but then he he he he like I mean he made it worse like because Jordan was subtle in the way he exposed it. Kobe was open.

50:56

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I remember that when that bottom law jaw goes to protruding uh that he was locked in and I found myself like, you know, right before I'm

51:04

taking the exam, I'm like, "All right, I'm locked in." Like this this is this it's powerful and it's like you said, it's mobilizing. But I'll see I'll

51:12

say something based on I love I love the transition that you talked about from fear to anger to love. I saw that in

51:19

Kobe. I didn't well not the fear stuff but we we we knew Kobe as I mentioned.

51:23

My daughter um was like he was a mentor to her. Uh he was Athena was with her with him

51:30

the like I don't know 11 hours before the crash. Wow. Yeah.

51:35

11 hours before the crash. He was they were working out together and he's like all right I'll see you tomorrow. and now now it's my turn.

51:43

Now it's my turn. And the um you know and uh but to watch him you know I the

51:51

way we met is I coached against him my daughter's team and his daughter's team and I'm a little angry dude who didn't play in the league. So this is my moment.

51:59

Yeah.

52:00

And uh you know I I I'm going to tell you this story then I'll tell you the story with him. So, so we play him and I'm in I'm in my mode and my Athena's

52:09

cooking and we win by like 30 points and he comes out his [clears throat] his friend who's assistant coach comes out.

52:14

He's like seven feet tall and um he says, "Hey, can we talk to you?" I'm like, "Oh man, we done we done beat

52:21

Kobe's team by 50. Did I talk about his mama? You know, did I say something?" Cuz I'm intense. I'm a little dude like that played the game. So, I'm I'm going

52:29

like, "Okay, what did I do?" He's like, "No, no, no." He starts talking to me.

52:32

He's like, "No." He's we start shop talking a little bit like oh offense and hoff practice and I'm like he's like why don't you come in

52:39

the room why don't you talk to Kobe so listen I'm listen I'm a fighter all through high school man so I'm like this a big seven foot dude

52:47

you know Kobe's tall and athletic and looks like there's another dude in the corner so I'm like all right I'mma push the door here I'mma hold the

52:55

door here I'mma throw that chair and be able to get out you know I'm like why why are they calling me because I thought they were just upset that they

53:01

lost And to to talk about anger versus love. Angry Kobe is I'm pissed that this dude who doesn't look like a basketball

53:10

player has a daughter who just beat us and I'm you know I'm one of the best ever.

53:15

But it was love. It was all like hey yeah.

53:18

You know how do you practice? What offense do you use? How do how often do you work out with your daughter? That's right.

53:23

And that was my that to see that progression. So even Kobe I think who was you know angry angry personified anger personified really moved to a

53:31

different model [clears throat] when he was coaching his daughter and the the the the statesman he became when he was when he used love and

53:40

inspiration as a base yeah was way better than the than the than the you know the platform he had created through anger.

‍

53:46

Absolutely. And just just a quick shout out uh during my first major international case, the death of

53:54

15-year-old Jordan Edwards. Kobe heard about it. Kobe called uh Jordan's brothers uh and spoke with them on the phone. They were huge basketball fans.

54:02

He was in Japan at the time.

54:04

Uh he called across the country, got them on the phone, sat and encouraged them, sent them a jersey sign, sneakers signed.

54:11

Amazing. Um, and so, uh, yeah, so something that's all always mentioned about Kobe, uh, is his heart for doing

54:20

the work, like taking care of people when no one was watching. That's something that he did. Um, you know, it wasn't based on a relationship he had with me. He just saw what happened and

54:28

reached out. So, okay. Well, listen. Um, we're going to do the we're going to we're going to call somebody, find out about your superpower, and I'm going to tell you right now,

54:36

we we now we're blood brothers now. like we done we done cut the palms and signed up because I mean I there's so much in common that I feel like we've had and it

54:45

to your point about mental health and I'm dealing with some stuff right now.

54:49

I think the point about mental health that's important to remember is that all of these journeys seem so separate.

54:55

Yeah, you got another fellow here. I'm point I'm point to you. All these journeys seem so separate and I think you get to a point in your

55:03

career and your life especially if you're a high level performer where you have to kind of take a few moments with other highle performers to talk about things like that.

55:13

Yeah.

55:14

You know to talk I mean I'm in some ways I didn't want you to break down but I'm glad that you did because you needed that.

55:24

Yeah. You know, and that that's something that I don't think that we spend enough time in communities saying, "Okay, we're going to just get down."

55:31

And I I told you the way I am, Orion and Thea, you know, the way I am. I'm not talking about nothing. I'm not talking about nothing that hurts me. I'm not talking about anything.

55:40

Yeah. I am the rock. I am the I'm the monster. I'm Superman.

55:45

But sometimes it's good to let people know that I'm not Superman. Absolutely.

55:50

And I'm going through some stuff. So that's So let's uh So what we want to do now is we want to set up our call. So all right.

55:57

I don't hear the ringing. Oh yeah, I hear it now. It's connected. It's connected.

56:01

Hello, Red.

56:03

This is Moo. Um great to meet you. We're asking Lee uh a question that we asked to all of our uh people on our show and

56:11

we asked him what what is his superpower?

56:14

And so then we call somebody and we ask them and say, "Hey, what do you uh what do you think his superpower is?" Oh man,

56:20

that's tough. Um because No, no, it's tough because it's hard to say one. Um I think Lee is a naturalb born leader. Um

56:29

he's tenacious. Um particularly in the pursuit of justice, like he's always been like that. Um but I I would I would

56:39

say probably if you had to distill it down to one thing, like his superpower is like getting it done. like whatever it is like he figures out what needs to

56:48

be done and getting it done. I think that's something like a superpower of his. What do you think? What do you think?

56:54

Yeah, I think that falls in it. Tim, for what for what it's worth, if I told them that I have a very difficult time looking away and that the truth is I have a very difficult time looking away

57:02

until the problem is resolved in a way that I think is satisfactory. So, I think that's how it's Yeah. It's the tenacity that there.

57:09

Yeah, we Yeah, we said we said the same thing in different ways like he's always been like that. A lot of people see him now um for and rightfully so like see

57:18

him as a um fearless, tenacious pursuer of justice, but he's been like that as long as I've known him like large and small things.

57:27

That's awesome.

57:27

And so I mentioned earlier that we that I started a mentoring program because it was it was necessary for me to give back as soon as I got to the campus to show

57:36

how grateful I was to be there. And there was one person who had the exact same plan like literally written out. He called his program My Brother's Keeper, which was safer. I called mine mafia

57:45

because I wanted to attract the kid and the kid was Tim. Yeah.

57:50

Can't just gloss over the fact that you called him Stacy. Ah, what's Can we get story on that?

57:57

Yeah. So, my name is Sylvester Lee Merritt.

58:00

Uh, I'll let Tim tell his aspect of it, then I have to tell my gangster story.

58:04

[laughter]

58:05

Oh, wow. See, like I I didn't realize I I let y'all know Batman's identity. But like [laughter] um but but but true story though like

58:13

what people call him is an indication of how they're in community with him where where they know him from.

58:19

So like people in LA call him lyric because he always had a lyric and he always had raps. Um if you met him around the time of college we were calling him by his first name. So I call

58:27

him Stacy but that's when I met him. And then people who know him through the law or later later in life so to speak will call him Lee.

58:34

But like that's the short end of it. He he but he he know his name. He could tell you better. [laughter] But yeah, I'm named after my mom, uh,

58:42

whose name is Stacy, and it's it's an interesting story. Um, she was given abortion money by my father and her

58:49

grandmother. Uh, she could not have another baby. She already had two.

58:55

She actually had a third, which was an abortion, and she was pregnant again.

58:59

And so she went down to the clinic. Um they they prepped her, they checked her belly, they did the sonogram, and then

59:07

they left and they left the sonogram on the table where she was, which is a a policy violation. No one wants to see the outline of the baby that they're about to terminate.

59:16

And so she saw it and was like, "Well, there that's a real baby. I got to go." And so she left and she told people

59:23

like, "Well, look, she is going to be named Stacy. She's going to be my responsibility.

59:29

[laughter]

59:29

um I'm certain this girl and um and I'm going to name her after me so nobody thinks that they have to be responsible for it. This is my responsibility. So that's where I get my name from.

59:39

That's an amazing story. That's amazing. Yeah.

59:41

Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. Uh we apologize for uh for doing this, but it's been such a great part of the show. Um and thank

59:49

you, Lee, for for reaching out or sorry, thank you Stacy. [laughter] All right. We'll see. Like again, you

59:57

got you got you got to call them how you know them. But hey, glad to [laughter] help. I'll be in touch soon.

‍

1:00:00

See, you always get more than you, you know what I mean? You always get more than you bargain for. Uh which was great. I mean, that story is profound. That's a profound story.

1:00:10

Yeah.

1:00:11

Um you I mean you that you you may not have been here.

1:00:15

Yeah. And that's part of it for me like that gratefulness that I show up with.

1:00:18

My mom wrote that to me in a poem when I was a newborn. And so I read it when I was old enough to read it. the story of how I got here and that that was

1:00:26

essentially it. And so it's always like, man, so I could have been gone before I started. Then I was born extremely premature. I was born about three and a half pounds.

1:00:35

Wow.

1:00:35

Um and attached to an incubator um and uh at a hospital called Killer King in Los Angeles that couldn't handle that

1:00:43

kind of uh so I had to be transferred to Pres Hollywood Presbyterian with with a neonatal unit that kept You talking about MLK? Yeah.

1:00:50

Yeah. So we Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We we actually we were working at that hospital. Yeah. Yeah.

1:00:54

Yeah. Yeah. So it was it had a very bad reputation at the time. I was born with it and you know about the black women mortality.

1:01:00

Drew Drew and MLK. They had a medical school there for a while. Yeah. Yeah.

1:01:04

And so um and so yeah, I was born premature um um and wasn't supposed to be here in

1:01:12

the first place. And you know to be able to grow strong and healthy and just to be around it honestly feels like a blessing. Every day I feel like all

1:01:21

right since I'm on borrowed time I might as well do something radical anyway.

1:01:24

[laughter] You know it's I mean every day is a every day that's why I say average normal days are amazing days. People don't people people operate and wait for oh I'm going to

1:01:32

wait till I retire. I'm going to wait for vacation. No today is an amazing day. And if you have that mindset you're much much more grateful. So it's crazy

1:01:40

that our our our lines are crossed. And it's actually even crazier because you grew up in LA

1:01:47

and I grew up in Toronto. Obviously, there's a Drake Kendrick [clears throat] battle that's about to happen here real quick. Comes down to Drake Kendrick.

1:01:55

But I I was I was I thought I was going to rap until I was about 16. So I was in a you know, we had a rap group. We had a I we almost signed with Arista. Yeah.

1:02:04

I mean it was We signed with Warner Bros.

1:02:05

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. I mean so this this that's that's this you still spit. Who going first? No. Who going first? got to.

1:02:13

No. No. All right. I try to get him a few times.

1:02:16

I never I never miss an opportunity. So,

1:02:19

[laughter]

1:02:20

all right. Well, go go. We got We don't have a beat.

1:02:23

I don't have I don't need to be. No worries. Okay. Okay.

1:02:25

All right. I might end up with doing two just cuz I you know this I enjoy this. I don't get to do it. Y'all ready? Y did not allow y'all to record me for this. I am a professional civil [laughter]

1:02:34

rights attorney. Now y'all can record this. Cool. They recording obviously.

1:02:37

All right. the the current my friend Tim who we just got off the phone with uh sent me a beat and a song. He says, "Hey, I want to write uh I want to make a song about current events." Yeah.

1:02:47

Uh and about how we as as black men as as a religious black man, how we respond to current events, right? I'm going call

1:02:55

it the current. Um and so it's both a water analogy about things getting swept away by the current and the current events. So at the time I was teaching

1:03:03

current events in Candidates. So [laughter] let's go. Let's go. So it says um breaking news, another kid is dead off in these streets. The flu is

1:03:10

evolving so quickly that medicine can't keep pacing. Even if it could, your pockets don't reach deep enough. See, life is just a rat race and po folks just ain't keeping up. Keep in touch

1:03:18

because the globe is steady heating up and Congress has a plan. But see that talking really leads to much. Plus, there's way too many people who ain't eating enough. And running up in your house seems a convenient way of reing

1:03:27

up. And we discuss why it seems Jesus didn't bleed enough. Cuz we can't see the victory of fear steady that he eat in us. Drifting on the current, caught

1:03:34

up in the times, focused on illusions, ultimately blind. The stock market is crashing, can't find a lasting job, and everybody's asking, "What happened to

1:03:42

God? What happened to us? We invested our lives in this culture to sell in fear, and we're readily buying it." So lies come standard, and status quo in this environment. It's riding on the

1:03:50

current, rising with the tide, and it's surprising when we drown in shallow water cuz we ain't learned to breathe or look to the eternal. And not what's happening currently.

1:03:58

Wow. Listen, listen. Flex. [laughter] Hey, Flex Charlemagne. I got y'all, man.

1:04:04

Right now, I got y'all. All right. And we coming for you now. Now, that's the next that's what we doing all the time.

1:04:09

Everybody get Oh, that's you got a bust. All right. That's legit.

1:04:12

Second one, the seed. That's what I like to do. So, I don't get to do it often. I love to do it with my students. There you go. [laughter] I asked them the the other day. I was like, "Any of y'all perform?" Just so they could say they

1:04:20

do. So, I can I could do me. [laughter] So, um, uh, I wrote this for my son last

1:04:27

year on Father's Day, and I was like, I really want to write something that reflects a life lesson that I have that when I'm gone, they can carry it. Yeah.

1:04:36

So, I wrote a song called The Seed. This is just about it's about the basic principle that you reap what you saw.

1:04:42

So, uh, which is an important life lesson, of course. Um, and so I said, um, dear son, let me tell you about your

1:04:49

greatness within passed down from the generations. This is a sacred privilege to share with you a simple story. The subject is you. You're the moral of the story. You're the publishers's proof.

1:04:58

There was a seed planted in the garden of Kush talking the don civilization and it started with us. Planted deep within the soil of the garden within was a seed

1:05:06

that held the wonders of the knowledge of men. It was a seed that told the story of the glory of God and his purpose for creation. The story is ours.

1:05:14

He planted us deep in the soil of the garden of man. There was a purpose to the seed. It was a part of the plan. M you see the essence of his love he placed inside of the sea. So we're

1:05:22

reflections of his love. His love abideth in me. You're a reflection of his love. His love abideth in you. Being reflections of his love is what he designed us to do. What I'm trying to

1:05:30

tell you, child, is that you never will fail. Have no fear for opposition. Boy, you're gifted as hell. There's a law tied to existence that will always be

1:05:38

true. Beyond perceptions or distortions, you're the publishers's proof. You see, the moral of the story lies inside of the seed. A reflection of his love he

1:05:45

designed us to be. Tie that truth to the law that you already know. When God placed you on this earth, he called you to grow in the form that you are taking

1:05:53

as the rivers they flow. You're the love seat of existence and you reap what you sow. Wow. Yo. No.

1:06:02

All right. I see. I didn't know.

1:06:04

I mean, I didn't know it was coming like this. I didn't realize it was coming like this. All right. 16.

1:06:09

No. [laughter] I might get fired. This gets But actually, so what's crazy? This is so crazy. Everything happens for a reason.

1:06:17

Everything hap everything happens for a reason.

1:06:19

Y like do you I I'm just talking to the fellows here. You guys have to realize like every moment, every interaction, every connection happens for a reason.

1:06:27

And this happened today for a reason. Absolutely.

‍

1:06:29

So I'm actually working on a soundtrack to the book.

1:06:33

I'm actually working on a soundtrack to the book right now. So what's interesting Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so crazy because we both grew up like

1:06:41

that rapping and if you I mean I don't know do any of y'all perform or anything or sing or you don't you don't understand a rapper's life. You don't

1:06:50

understand the rapper's life. Everything that you do goes through the lens of of

1:06:57

words that you write or words that you've heard. Yeah. Like every moment.

1:07:01

Y I tell a story. That's how I got my name lyric is because you would do something it would remind me of the lyric of a song and I would say it out loud. So people started calling me lyrics.

1:07:10

So I have I have I have a song a whole song which is just old rap songs.

1:07:15

The whole song is just old rap songs. I don't it's no it's no it's just telling the story through old songs which is how we grew up and how we still even think

1:07:23

to this day. I'm in meetings talking about home you know.

1:07:25

Yeah. Yeah. Um, but uh, so anyway, so I'm working on that soundtrack. And what's really interesting about the the game now is that before,

Chapter 11: Closing Thoughts: Embrace every part of yourself

1:07:35

you know, I, you know, I had a DJ, I had a producer, I had an AR guy, you know, I had the three other guys in my group,

1:07:43

and now now all of those people can be done. Like you can produce an entire album by yourself. Yeah.

1:07:49

You know, you can write the beat by yourself. You can you can you can put the put your lyrics in the AI. You can have that another voice do it if you want. You can enhance your own voice.

1:07:58

It's nuts. I mean, in some ways, like I people say, "Oh, it's not the same." It isn't the same, but if you know the game, Yeah.

1:08:05

you can. It actually It brings it to a whole other level.

1:08:08

So, there you go. New new album coming out. Moo and Lee. That's it.

1:08:12

I'll give Lee No, Lee and Moo. I'll let you I'll let Lee go first. I'll be I'll be like Flavor Play. I'll be the hype man. [laughter]

1:08:20

That's amazing. That's amazing. All right. So, one one other question I have. If if there was some Well, I was going to say there's like 18 things you

1:08:28

told us you didn't say. I don't even know if we need this question.

1:08:31

I don't know if we need this question, but I'm going to ask it. Is there something that you want to tell um us here on Less than 1%? Tell the people

1:08:38

who watch this and listen to it that you that they wouldn't know by digesting you anywhere else

1:08:46

besides the fact that your name is Stacy and you're a rapper, but something else.

1:08:50

Um, well, they wouldn't know by digesting me anywhere else. And you did give me a chance to think about this question and I think I've already talked about the answer, so now they know.

1:09:00

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. I can't think of anything off the top.

1:09:03

Okay. Anything other than the fact that you So, you ever I mean, is this Are you guys thinking about putting this stuff out?

1:09:10

Uh, so I'm working on a book and I have a very I guess I guess Yeah.

1:09:15

So, WB Devo talks about the dualism, the twin consciousness of being African and African-American. And so I already

1:09:24

know that I show up as stereotypes. I look like a basketball player. I look like a rapper, but I'm a professional, very talented attorney.

1:09:31

And so if I put out there that I'm also, you know, I like rap. I like basketball.

1:09:35

That pushes me in a stereotype that sometimes locks me out of the door. So there's still a bit of of fear that goes around. I'm gonna help you with that. You're going to get challenged.

1:09:43

I'm going to help you with that

1:09:44

[laughter]

1:09:44

because I've I'm I'm going through that. Have gone and am going through that.

1:09:49

you are uniquely who you are because of all those experiences. And I struggled with that in this role. I'm like, you know, if you guys came four years ago, I

1:09:58

didn't have album covers on my back wall. I didn't have a podcast and writing a book. I'm coming up with an album. Like, I wouldn't do that because

1:10:05

I was worried that in healthc care spaces is very stodgy and very, you know, stereotypical that I would be perceived

1:10:13

in a different way. And I guarantee you guarantee you that it has taken my performance as a CEO to a whole other

1:10:20

level because to be your full authentic self be your full authentic self. Your energy is everything about you. See those things that we think we hide those

1:10:29

superpowers we hide are actually the things that propel us into places we never thought we could be. What is more powerful than somebody

1:10:36

who fights for justice for young people that is grew up in this in say you know

1:10:43

thinking and doing and acting and you already talked about it the same way as opposed to being somebody that's devoid and diffuse and you know just be

1:10:52

man be you. It's amazing. I I'm I'm in I'm intrigued and I'm not intrigued that often. Yeah.

1:10:58

And I'm intrigued with the combination of things that brought Lee Merritt to this moment right now. So, I would just encourage you. I I expect to see the book. I want a book.

1:11:06

You got to send me give me a signed copy.

1:11:08

And then I want to see the album. You know, I'll be I'll give it I'll give it five mics. See, they don't know about it. They don't know about Five Mics.

1:11:15

[laughter]

1:11:16

Well, I'm I'm going to look for your help help in printing. I just finished writing it and now I don't know how to get it to print. I want to go the traditional route so we can talk about Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

1:11:23

And um and yeah, you know, anytime I can get in the booth, you know, if you need a little feature on Hey, let's go. Let's go. [laughter] So, the one thing I I will hold you to it

1:11:31

because the one thing I want to do is there are a couple of uh what would you call them?

1:11:37

Instrumental kind of things that I'm want to put on the album that all of my friends who are creatives.

1:11:43

I want to see if they'll if they'll add to it. So, Demola who's a violinist. I got True the Star who was on uh American Idol.

1:11:51

I got a bunch of different people that I'm like, "Hey, can you just drop something?" We just release it on Instagram or something, you know? Yeah.

1:11:57

uh we don't have to, you know, put it out there and get all the rights and all that other stuff, but I think that would be so cool to have you drop something on there. Be glad. Yeah.

1:12:05

All right. Well, I app anything else that you want to share with any last thoughts for the audience that's out there deal realizing that this audience

1:12:12

is one that maybe feels underrated u maybe feels like they're the less than 1% that there's greatness they have that's not being seen.

1:12:20

So, I encourage people that this is your opportunity uh to uh move the needle the way you want to. I don't think uh that

1:12:29

and it's not my goal to snap my fingers and change America. I do believe in training a group of uh people to identify the problem which is the

1:12:37

mission uh and to dismantle it and to build a new mission. Uh I'm a constitutional attorney. I believe in the power of our constitution. I think

1:12:45

one of the dope things about our our system of government is the constitution was designed to be reformed uh and made again and to change according to our

1:12:54

times. I think we're behind on that and we are uniquely uh this generation is in a position to create a nation that reflects some of our early promises in

1:13:03

reality today. Uh I'm excited about where we are because sometimes the pendulum has to sling swing so far in

1:13:10

the other direction uh uh before we get our opportunity to take the field. So uh for everybody who is thinking about

1:13:17

getting into this work, who's involved in this work is feeling discouraged.

1:13:21

This is it's our ball now and and I think we can I know from my experience that we can do more than we think we can, you know.

1:13:29

Yeah, that's that's that's amazing mindset. Maybe just one thing I will add to that in closing is that I think what you do and we talked about that pre-show

1:13:38

in healthcare. Healthcare is uh apolitical.

1:13:42

Uh I got to care for people no matter what. I got to care for him. I don't It doesn't matter what you believe in. My responsibility, the oath that I signed

1:13:49

says when you come through the door, I'm your doctor and I'm going to do the best for you.

1:13:55

I think that what you're doing is that I think when you're looking at people that are dealing with injustice, we can get caught up in the political,

1:14:04

you know, sort of millu of like, oh, what side and all this other stuff, but the stories that you told here today are deeply personal. You're not interested.

1:14:12

I mean, I think you probably could be a politician because of what you've done, but the reasons why you impacting the world is because you're fundamentally

1:14:20

passionate about helping people and especially people who you feel are treat are treated unfairly.

1:14:26

And that to me, it doesn't matter who the president is. It doesn't matter where you stand in life in respect to what side of the coin you're on. Go out

1:14:35

there and find those injustices. Find people that you can help change your lives. and don't worry about what everybody else is doing because 20 years

1:14:43

from now, 30, 40 years from now, I'm looking at the fellows. You guys will have the opportunity to change the world and you have the opportunity to improve people's lives. So,

1:14:52

yeah, thank you.

1:14:53

Thank you. Thank you, Lee Merritt aka Lyric the Prophet L.

1:14:57

Lyric, [laughter] uh, thank you for being on the show. I mean, amazing amazing podcast and, uh, thank you. You're stuck with me as a

1:15:04

friend. So, and and and as a stage and as a opening act.

1:15:08

Yep. Yep. Yep. You got to get me out on the golf course. I'm down. Yes, sir. Let's figure it out. All right. Appreciate you. All right. All right.

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