Part 1: How Leopoldo López Redefined Movements

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Welcome to Lesson 1% podcast. Um, I'm here today with Leopold Lopez, my

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friend. Um, I'm not going to give away his story. uh I want to talk to him

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today. But a reminder to everybody uh check us out on all the different platforms. Um this is our second podcast

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and uh we have an opportunity to really talk to somebody who is a what I call a less than 1enter. Um, just want to

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remind everybody the origination of this podcast um is really about going out and

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finding people that live outside the box that disrupt um that maybe um have an

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opportunity to change the world um but they've haven't been given that opportunity or people like them haven't

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been given that opportunity. And so today we're going to talk to Leo Paulo and we are going to go through your

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story and find out you know um you know how you disrupted because I I I think I

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think you disrupted a little bit um and and your story is so amazing. So first

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you know before we start I'd like to thank you for coming cuz I know you came all the way from Spain um through San

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Francisco and I know um you you you did that cuz maybe we're friends. Of course,

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man. No. Yeah, definitely friend. We we met um um at Simon Synynx event and uh

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that was amazing. Uh massive and uh you know really talked about power um at

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that at that meeting and how you know how we share power, distribute power, how do we take power and your story is

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really about about power. It's about really um I don't want to use your your

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words, but about a regime. You were really trying to change the world uh through through just running for office,

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which is which is something here in America we probably take for granted. And then tell me tell me a bit a little

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bit about that. What made you run for office in Venezuela? Well, um first of

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all, thanks thanks and uh I your story is it's incredible too. So, I'm glad‍

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that you have a podcast and you'll be able to share it. Yeah. With with many people. I like the concept of the less

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than 1%. I'm going to take it home and and and build on it. Yes. So, um my my

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story is um I I was born in Venezuela. Uh I had the opportunity to come to the

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US to study. So, I finished my high school, went through college and grad school and never wanted to stay here. I

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went back to Venezuela immediately. I worked at the oil um industry. I had a

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great job as an economist um which gave me the opportunity to get to know the country, the economy, the core of

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Venezuela. And then Chavis came to power in 1999 and he called for a constituent

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assembly to change everything. That was the beginning of the end. But I decided to run for office and I had a small

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movement at the time and I had to leave my job. So I had a good job uh and I had

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to leave my job to pursue a dream and I ran and I lost. So the beginning of my

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formal political career was with um with a defeat. Uh but I decided to keep

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going. I went out and found other young people who wanted to go into politics.

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So, a couple of months after that, there was an election and I ran again to become the mayor of the city I was born

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in, Karakas, Venezuela, the capital of Venezuela, and I won. I was the

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underdog. Uh, but uh, you were the you were the less than 1enter that no one thought you were going to win.

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Literally, I had 2% in the polls when I started. Wow. And uh everybody said it's

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impossible. It's impossible. Some I mean I even remember talking to some pollsters and they said it's

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mathematically impossible that you will win. You know that sounds familiar. And then uh I remember going to someone

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who was going to help me um in my campaign who was friends of my grandfather. And I I went to talk to him

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and at the end he said you're not going to win but because you know I really like your grandfather I'm going to help

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you. I was like, "No, no, no. If you're not even going to listen to what I'm going to do uh as mayor, I'd rather not

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get your support." And I'm glad I didn't because they were real estate developers and we really put the house in order in

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terms of real estate development in in the municipality. So Paulo, when when you sorry to cut you off, but when you

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So you ran once and lost and and how old were you at this time? I was 26. So you're 26. Like you're I mean you're

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just forming, right? And and so then they you run you you're

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getting ready to run again and all these pollsters are saying you have no you have less well you got 2% you got a

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better chance I had a better chance I doubled you doubled the chance and then

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at that point when people are saying you shouldn't run what's your reaction at that time what I mean what are you

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feeling inside at that particular time I'm like they don't know I know you know I know what I can do you know I I um I

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don't want to take things for granted, but I don't want anybody else imposing to me what my potential is, right? And

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that's uh that's been the story of my life. I mean, I've swam against the

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current all my life. Um and I feel good about it. I mean, it's not it's it's it's kind of the way I approach things.

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I don't like um to see impossibles. So, I like to just chase my dream and um so

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I lost and and then I won as mayor and I was very young and structured a great

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team of people um that were also very young, very committed, well educated in

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their own specific areas. combined a team, some people with experience and we

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completely changed the municipality that that part of the city became uh the safest um municipality in Venezuela at a

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time when Karakas was the most dangerous city in the world. Um we did great things in healthcare. Uh we had an

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incredible uh leader actually that built a system

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of public health with ER uh facilities um ambulances, motorcycles. I mean we

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were um really the vanguard of of public health at the time. Um we changed the

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city physically. We build um uh parks, plazas. I we build um theaters and

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sports facilities. We were able to do all of this because we changed the taxation system. We made it simple. We

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lowered taxes. Uh we were very very transparent and um that gave me a big uh

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presence uh not just for the people in the city but nationwide. uh in parallel

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to my job as a mayor that I loved I I really really loved uh my time as mayor.

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I mean if anyone anyone wants to go into politics I think that you know local politics it's it's just the way to go. I

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mean that's that's it's like the ER for you. It's where you see you know the patients is where you need to to choose

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and have direct and immediate impact. So um things uh um went well uh and the

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municipality very well but in parallel to that the municipality became the

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center of all of the protests. So I had always two hats you know the hat as a

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leader um of protests against the uh the regime uh and also managing the

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municipality. So years went by um I ran for reelection. I won with uh more than

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80% wow of of the vote. And so you went from from 2% polling I won with 51 my first term

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and then with uh 84% uh reelection and then I was running for higher office and

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the what could have been a blessing became a curse because I was disqualified by Chavez. I was simply

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taken out of the ballot box. um they open a bogus case against me and I was

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taken out of my career and that for me was one of the toughest moments of my of

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my career because I had a team I had built a team of hundreds of people people who knew how to run a city and we

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were building a team to run a country. Uh I had experts in in all of the areas

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in public safety, in public health, in infrastructure, in healthcare, in um

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budgeting, in administration, in legal. I had a great great team. And when they

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disqualified me was like caught in the wings of the entire team. So again, I had to reinvent myself. I was

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unemployed. Uh I supported I ran for higher office. I was disqualified. So I

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supported another candidate that had 2% at the time and he won with my support

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and also the candidate that I supported for the municipality also won but I was

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I was unemployed. So uh I decided to

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build a new movement. Um the thing I've done throughout my life is to build

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movements. When when I look back at my career, my career is uh I'm an I'm an

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entrepreneur of uh social movements. That's that's what I would that's what I would define the things that I've done.

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That's what I like to do to build movements. So I built a new movement

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called people's will uh with very young people from the student movement uh

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local community leaders and we were focused in doing our activism in two

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things non-violent action and social work and we had this idea that to become

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a political leader you needed to be a social leader first to be with the people you needed to you just engage in

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the issues of the people and try to organize even without being government you can do a lot. So we grew very fast.

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Uh I was recently married with Lilian who is

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my soulmate, my you know companion in in this journey and I got permission from

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her just to travel around the country every week. So I would leave my house um

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on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and return on Saturday. Um and I crisscross the

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country and I love doing that. I love doing that. And sometimes I would meet with 500 people, a thousand people,

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sometimes with five. And I had the same energy, the same commitment to meet with

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the five or the 500. And that's how you build a movement because you never know when the the leaders uh are going to be

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and and I was in search of leaders, not necessarily in search of crowds. Um, so

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that Wow. Okay. Wait, I got to stop you because that's that's a you can't drop

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that mic. But that's a drop that's a drop the mic moment. So So Jordan, I think we need you write this down. He he

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he you were in search of leaders, not in search of crowds. That that is because

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if you're in search of crowds, you're looking for followers. You're looking for you're looking for people to validate your place in the world. But‍

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you weren't doing that. You were looking for people who could to help you with your just cause. and I help them, right?

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Because that's that's the name of the game, right? Leaders helping leaders. And and that was my proposal to them. I

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said, you know, let let's build this together. I mean, you want to be mayor of your municipality, I want to help

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you. You want to be the leader of your community, I want to help you. You want to be whatever you want to be, I want to

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help you, but I want you to help me. you know, that's that was uh and I remember

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we'll we'll get to this, but years after that, I ended up in prison uh for seven years and I remember having a

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conversation with one of my partners in this journey and we were joking about it. He said, "Well, I remember when you

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went to my state and you you you asked me to join this movement as a partner.

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Look where the partnership has taken me." Well, he became mayor of his town. Wow. But he but we were both in prison.

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We were laughing about it. Well, you know, the shares of this company took me to prison. I was like, well, man, that's

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the name of the game. You know, you take risks. And um so, so we built this movement called People's Will. And it

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was nationwide. We was very successful. And in the year 2013, 2012, uh there was a presidential

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primary. I was running, I was winning, and I continued to be disqualified. I

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actually took my case to the Interamerican Human Rights Court and I won, but the decision was not taken um

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by by the regime. So again, I couldn't run. So my political career has been one

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not of chasing office has been one of helping other leaders because I've been

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incapable of running myself. So the last time I was able to put my name on the ballot was 20 years ago in 2004. Wow. Uh

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so the last 20 years of my political career has been helping others um to to

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to reach you know the positions I'm not able the thing so I of course you know

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before this I do we do the LinkedIn biopsy and the Instagram biopsy I mean I

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knew you it's funny I knew you as a person before I knew the story and so

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it's very interesting you remember we were sitting uh you know in Colorado and I was amazed by your story. But how how many

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do you know how many Instagram followers you have? I think around a million and

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something and in X like 5.2 million 5.3

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I mean I so I guess why I'm pointing that out is that there are so many people that believe in you and and I

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think it's you know as you said it's not about you but it's what you represent. It's what you represent. It's what it's

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what you represent to the world, the movement um that you represent and the fact that I think you give people a

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voice that that don't have it. So, um it's so so amazing. So, okay. So, you're

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So, you're now out of office. I'm out of office. You get disqualified every time

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that you cuz they're nervous. Somebody I I you're you're a basketball player. I

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My sport is boxing. Okay. um and surfing. But uh so I think that

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the analogy plays out better with boxing. I was not allowed to go up to

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the ring. I wanted to fight. I was trained. I knew I could win, but I was not allowed to step up to the ring. Not

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even allowed to compete. Not even allowed to compete. And and and back to the you know when I talked to you about

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less than 1%. Right. I mean that's the problem, right? the lesson. You were put into a box by whoever and they did not

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even they did not even want to compete against you. Yes. It's terrible. So I had to reinvent myself and I had to say

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how do how do I play this game? Right. So the the name of the game for me was leadership was not not not not office

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was leadership and the name of the game for me was leadership by leading leaders

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by creating a community of leaders. So that's level what is that? Is that a level five leader? Right. The leader who

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creates other leaders. Well, I mean I don't know the Maxwell, right? That's Maxwell's. Yeah. I don't I'm not

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familiar with that, but that's what I naturally was inclined to do. Yeah. And um so in 2012 there was this primary. Um

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again, I was disqualified. I became the the campaign um the head of the campaign

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of the other candidate that I endorsed. And in 2013, Chavis died and there was

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an election and this guy did a very good campaign. We did an incredible campaign

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and against all odds, he won by a very, very um small margin, but he won. And

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that night, I told him, I said, "You already won, but now in order to bring

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home that victory, you need to take people to the streets." And at the beginning, he said

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yes. And then he was surrounded by other adviserss and they said no you know

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you're a statesman and you know don't follow that that that advice that's just

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not going to lead anywhere. So he decided not to do anything and Maduro stole the election. So I went back to

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the streets um and there was a municipal election at the end of that year and we

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became the movement that won the largest number of municipalities with a commitment to

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confront the dictatorship. um we won in with municipal leaders, not saying that

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we were going to get running water to the neighborhoods or or that we were going to improve um any of the municipal

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things. Our main commitment was we want to build a movement to confront and

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overcome the dictatorship and we won. And um in January of

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2014 with Maria Korina Machado who has become the the leader in in in this uh

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year in Venezuela. We actually won the election a month ago. We called for protest and we uh called the people to

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the streets and tens of thousands of people came to the streets. And on

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January the 12th of 2014, there was a big protest and I was leading that

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protest with nonviolent uh tactics, very disciplined about our nonviolence. Uh we

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had been trained in this. I mean we saw the videos of the OPOR movement in

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Serbia, of the training sessions of the civil rights movement, of I mean you

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name it. I mean we were really into understanding how to confront a

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dictatorships that has the the weapons without having the weapons having the

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name it. I mean we were really into understanding how to confront a

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dictatorships that has the the weapons without having the weapons having the

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only thing uh at our disposal which is the people people power. So um we call

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for protest and that day um the dictatorship decided uh to go out and

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kill. So, uh, they killed with two shots in the back of his head a kid named

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Basilda Costa, who's a young carpenter, uh, who was 21 years old, and he was

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shot by the detail of the Minister of Interior. Three other people got killed

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that day. And that night, there was um, a warrant for my arrest. So, I decided

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to go into hiding. I went into hiding. And I had

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three ways I could take that uh that moment. I could stay in hiding, I could

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leave the country, or I could turn myself in. And I decided to turn myself in. At the time, I thought of two

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people. I thought of my great-grandfather who had been a political prisoner for 14 years. And I

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thought of Martin Luther King. I had read uh the letter from the prison of

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Birmingham. Uh if you've not read this or those who are listening, I highly

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recommend to read this document of Martin Luther King who is one of my heroes. And in in that document he says

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that non-violent action is about showing the scars of the potrified system in

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order to change the consciousness of the people to bring about change. So that's that's a core of what uh nonviolent is.

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Okay. So let let me let me let me let me understand this a little bit. So so

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they're killing people. They're they're going out and people who were involved in this movement, the involved in trying

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to make um Venezuela a better place and they're they're killing these

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people and you're and you're like, I'm I'm going to let me get out of the line of sight real quick. Let me go ahead and

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and and stay at home, bunker down, hide out. And then you

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decide that you're going to give yourself up to the people that have just killed

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other people. Yeah. That that so I turned myself in. Uh but that takes a

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level of strength to be able to face cuz you don't know what they're going to do to you. They may have killed you. Yes.

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And you knew that that was a possibility. Yes. And you still turned yourself in. Yes. Wow. And and I did so

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because I was convinced. And I'm still are I don't I don't regret doing that. I

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spent seven years in prison and I don't regret it. Not a single day because that

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was the only way at the time to continue the movement and uh that was the only

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way to show the scars of the system because at the time now we know that Venezuela is a dictatorship. Mhm. Now

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it's, you know, clear that um that it's far from being a democracy, but at the time, talking about 10 years ago, uh it

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was still confusing inside and from the outside. People still thought that it

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was a decaying democracy, but a democracy. Uh there was still legitimate

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recognition of the regime by other governments. So it was very clear to me

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that that was a an important step just to unmask the dictatorship and call it

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for what it was. So we were the first people calling Maduro a dictator. We

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were the first people saying that he was a a corrupt repressive um and that his

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regime was linked to the NRCS and nobody was saying this. And I remember giving

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press conferences and the journalist telling me, "Aren't you afraid that you're going to end up in prison?" And I

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said, "I'm just talking the truth. I mean, I hope you're not afraid of printing the truth. I take

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responsibility." So, um, I knew exactly what I was what I was doing. And and as I said, I was very inspired by the

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approach of Martin Luther King. I mean I I I've read of all of the leaders of nonviolent action you know Gandhi,

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Luther King, Mandela and and with the figure I I identify the most is with

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Luther King and very I mean very similar story and as we get to the to your story

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you end up you actually end up having a very similar um sort of what happened to

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him in Birmingham is about to happen now. So you so you decide to go and

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surrender yourself. Not surrender. Well, I mean Yeah. Yeah. Not surrender. I You

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turn You turn yourself in. I turned myself in. Yes. And um it was a massive

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I like that distinction though. Yes. Yes. You didn't surrender. You turned yourself in. Because the movement was

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still continuing. Oh, no. No. I was winning. I was turning myself in and I was winning. Right. and and because I

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mean they had me as a prisoner but the movement was in the streets and and the protest continued for four months and

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and the movement grew like it never grew before. So I I mean I so this is a a a

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very important distinction because many people in in the in this space that I

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live in um human rights offenders activists and I we can get into what I'm doing now at a global level but many

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people see themselves as victims. M I have never seen myself as a victim.

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Although I have been, but I don't see myself as such. Because if you see yourself as a victim, you give power to

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the oppressor. And and and this is the way it is. Um if if you surrender to a

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higher power, you are giving that power uh to them to control you. Wow. Um, and

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I was always very conscious um, that uh, I was turning myself in, but I was

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playing the game in my own terms. So, I called for a massive protest. I was in

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hiding. They raided my house. They raided my parents' house. They raided my

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um, the headquarters of my movement. They imprisoned tens of people. And then

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the number two of the regime goes to my house at midnight, talks to my wife and

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my parents, and he says, "There is a plan to kill Leopo. You better convince

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him to turn himself in in our terms. So imagine the reaction of my wife. She,

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you know, she reaches out to me and she says, you know, they're going to kill you." And I said,"I don't know if

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they're going to kill me, but what I do know, if somebody's going to kill me, it's them. And they can kill me in a

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dark alley, they can kill me in prison, or they can kill me in the rally that I

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am um calling the people. And I if they're going to do it, I'm going to, you know, just just press the limits."

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And um on February the 18th of 2014 with hundreds and hundreds of thousands of

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people, everybody dressing in white, I turned myself in. Uh it was a long day.

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Uh the first they put me in an armored vehicle. H and the head of the National

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Guard was in that armored vehicle and the roles were completely switched. He

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was completely nervous. He was calling Maduro the dictator. Yeah, that's that's that's it, right? That's that's that's

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right. And uh he was calling the dictator. Um so what do we do? And then

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he was preparing to repress the people. And I said, "Don't do that." And he says, "So what do we do?" I said, "Well,

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give me a megaphone. I'll take care of it." And so he calls Maduro, the president, says, "This guy is telling me

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that he can control the situation if we give him a megaphone." So he they give me a megaphone. And there are pictures

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of this, you know, surrounded by the military. I was the prisoner, but I was in control. And you had the megaphone. I

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had the megaphone. I was in control. And then uh they after like 3 hours, they

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take me to uh to an airport uh in the city surrounded by by thousands of

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people. And we get to the airport and there were three helicopters there. And

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I said, "What are we going to do?" um well, we're going to take you um to a military base. Um so they put me in a

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helicopter and the three helicopters go up because they didn't want the people to know in which one I was. So each one

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went in a different direction. Um so we go to a a military uh base in in

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Karakas. From there they take me to the um to the courts and from there they

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took me to the military prison where I spent the next four years in solitary

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confinement and um so I I want to talk about you know just what you told us so

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far at any point in time and what I'm intrigued with your story

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this time hearing it for the second time is that Even now I don't sense any fear.

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Were you were is at any point in time were you scared? Even if it was for your family, even if it wasn't for your own

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self or even if it was your for your friends, were you ever scared to tell the truth?

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No. Um and there were a lot of circumstances. Um but

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I maybe because I was always involved in sports maybe I mean I've I've always

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done combat sports and always extreme sports maybe um but I was not afraid

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because I was very conscious that being um afraid was giving power to them as

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well. Wow. That doesn't mean that the circumstances were not critical. But you know, Mandela wrote something that I

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always remembered. He said, "Courage is not about not having fear. Courage is

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about overcoming fear." And I think he was right. I think he's right. Um, and

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for me it was about courage. It's just overcoming fear, overcoming the circumstance. Um so so so they take you

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away and they take me away. They I remember that night uh that that that day started from being clandestine going

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into the trunk of a car, you know, going through different checkpoints in the trunk of a car, then going to a rally

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with hundreds of thousands of people, then into a helicopter, and that day

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ended up at midnight in a cell that was one and a half meters by 2 m um in a

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part of the military prison that was a building that I was the only prison listener there. I was in the fourth

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floor. Uh and I remember even the sounds of the locks of the of the nine locks

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between my cell and the entrance and you could hear the logs and the echoes and

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then the silence. And uh that night was very important for me because I had read

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a lot about what people do in prison because I knew that this could happen to

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me. So I read experiences from people in Venezuela because this is kind of

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ingrained in the story of Venezuela. Politics is about prison and exile and it's been that way for hundreds of

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years. Um my own great-grandfather was a political prisoner. Uh and and what I

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got from everything that I read was that you needed to have a routine in in

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prison. So I built my routine uh which was very simple. I decided that I was

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going to do three things every day that I was going to pray. Uh I was born and

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raised as a Catholic. Um but you know mechanical in a way you know I and I'm

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glad I'm glad and and and I really think that just having a spiritual dimension whatever it is whatever god you pray to

31:50

however way you do it I think it's very important to have that because that gives you a sense of um humbling

31:57

yourself to a higher being which is I think very important. Um the second

32:02

thing that I would do every day was to exercise my mind. I would read, I would

32:08

write, I would, you know, play chess, I would do math, I would, you know, just just do things that would keep me

32:15

active. And I would do physical exercise. And that was my day. And that

32:20

was um the way I set out to myself to win the day. Uh in a way like like um

32:29

like the AA, you know, the go by the day, you know. So I took my reality as

32:37

the presence of every day. And the only thing I was in control of was doing

32:44

those three things every day. And if I did those three things every day, I would win the day. So I saw myself as

32:53

waking up every day and setting myself to win the day. That was that was my job

32:58

to win the day in the terms that I set out for myself uh to do so and that was

33:06

very very useful. Uh actually I then wrote about this method and uh since I

33:15

had more than 500 people from my movement that were also in prison, I made sure that they all um you know got

33:22

this approach to how to deal with prison. And the other element that was

33:27

very important was not to deal with time because time can be a tougher element

33:37

than the locks. M uh because if you kneel yourself to time in the sense that

33:46

you create an expectation that in a week, in a month, in 6 months, or in the

33:53

next trial date, you're going to come out and that doesn't happen, you you're

33:59

crushed. So, I never prayed. I prayed every day and I never asked God uh for

34:07

my freedom. I didn't want to make God accountable for that because that was the one thing I had. I could pray and I

34:13

remember a a priest once told me once told me that people pray for three things. People pray for need, people

34:21

pray for fear and people pray for gratitude. And of the three the most um

34:27

effective one is if you pray for gratitude. So I started doing that and

34:33

when I look back I was very lucky person. I have incredible parents. I met

34:39

my four grandparents. Um I was able to have a good education. Uh I was able to

34:46

do the things that I wanted. Uh I became mayor. I did many things as mayor. I um

34:52

found a incredible woman who became my wife. I had kids. So I had a lot of things to to thank God for. And it even

34:59

got to a point that I was even thanking God for giving me the opportunity of

35:05

going through this process of fre of of prison or thanking God or the

35:12

circumstance when I could see through the crack of the window I had in my cell. I could see the stars or I could

35:18

see the moon or I could hit the bird. You you wait a second here and I I keep

35:23

So you are thanking God. You're in you're in prison. You're in prison in a

35:28

in a in a cell that is smaller than this room. Yes. Than this podcast studio and

35:34

you're thanking God for the opportunity to experience what you're

35:40

experiencing. I think you know that I'm just thinking about how

35:46

profound that is. I mean the the thoughts I have about win the day which

35:51

which I think in in the health care system the way we have it today in it

35:56

you know how complex it is here in America know both of us you know I used

36:01

to live you currently live in different countries so you know we've had um

36:06

experiences outside with healthcare in other countries and healthcare is so complex right now in America but I think

36:14

if we just won the today that would change everything because I think we are

36:19

focused on time. I think we're focused on tomorrow or yesterday or seven years from now and if we just won today, how

36:27

much greater, you know, care could we deliver to people who are in need at that time? The second thing I think

36:32

that's interesting, we have a lot of burnout in healthcare. We have a lot of people that are really frustrated with

36:40

um just taking care of people. I mean, it's a it's it's adnauseium, a lot of bureaucracy, a lot of red tape. People

36:46

are coming to you, they're hurting, they're sick, they're sad, and you're supposed to take care of them. But

36:51

sometimes we don't take the opportunity to have gratitude for the opportunity to be burnt out, for the opportunity to

36:58

have that opport, you know, to to be able to care for people. So I think those two things, you know, right now um

37:05

I'm I should be writing down cuz these things you've changed my sort of personal practice just in this podcast.

37:12

You that that win the day and be be you know pray for gratitude not for what I'm

37:18

scared of, not for what I need, but for what I'm actually grateful. So that's that's amazing. So So now you're you're

37:25

in this cell. You're thanking God for the sliver of light or the sliver of

37:31

being able to see the stars. So continue continue. But but always with um a

37:36

defiant attitude. So every day I mean let me let me make this clear. I was not

37:41

a monk, you know. I mean I was praying, yes, but I was always that boxer. Yeah,

37:48

absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I would tell my guards um because again, I was

37:53

leading a movement that I knew had millions of people in the streets. So, I knew, you know, that they knew. So, I

38:01

would tell my guards, I'd say, "Hey, man, with respect, we can go up and talk

38:06

to St. Peter, you know, we can go up to with respect, you have me, but if you

38:12

shout at me, none, I will shout back. And if you push me, I will push back.

38:19

and I can even hit you. And they would see me training every day in my cell and they knew I was serious about this. So

38:26

in a way I also had to to play the psychological game and 24/7. I never

38:36

allowed my guards to see me laying down in my bed. M I never allowed them to see

38:41

me sad or to see me crying or every day they would come at 6:00 a.m. I was

38:48

already I I didn't even have a watch, but I would naturally wake up. I only had a bucket of water. I had no running

38:55

water. I would just wash my face and I was just sitting there waiting. Um never

39:01

allowed them to see a crack. And that gave me even though I was in solitary

39:07

confinement, um I I knew that my attitude was speaking out to the

39:14

military, that my attitude was speaking out to the people. Um You're still

39:20

leading the movement. I was still leading the movement through whatever I could tell my lawyer or whatever I could

39:26

tell my wife and my mother, who were the only people who could visit me. um the

39:31

way I would send messages was they they would frisk me before receiving any

39:36

visit and they would frisk my wife or my mother. So what I did and I wrote a book

39:41

using this methodology is that since it was a military prison um they tried to

39:47

be very formal. So I complained every day about whatever circumstance and they

39:52

said you need to pass in your in writing. So they would give me a piece of paper and I would take because I had no books or no at the time I had no

40:00

books or no no no paper. Um it four years was a long time. So at times I had

40:06

books, at times I gave it away. But I would I would take the lower part of the of the paper uh and I would write very

40:14

very tiny lettering uh fold it, wrap it in in a plastic and put it in my mouth.

40:22

And when my mother or my wife came, I would give it to them. and they would put it in their mouth and then they

40:27

would go back they would open it and I they they could you know see kind of you

40:33

know the direction things should go. So that's a way I would talk to my movement. I that's a way I wrote

40:40

actually a book about energy in in in Venezuela um using using

40:46

this small notes uh with very fine print. So I was always very very active

40:52

and um I was very defiant. Um, we were able to uh organize a riot in the prison

41:00

at one time. We took control of the prison for 24 hours and um I feel I feel

41:05

inadequate right now. I mean, I can't even organize sometimes. I feel like I can't organize, you know, but yeah, across 25

41:13

states and, you know, 8,000 people from my office and you're doing it from a from a from prison. Well, I mean, it's

41:20

just setting yourself to do. So, so um my wife um who was always always on the

41:28

front line denouncing what was happening, she was always asking for

41:34

them to give me the things that by law I would have as a prisoner. I could go to

41:40

mass and I could go to see the son. for a long time they wouldn't allow me to do this but then they allowed me to go to

41:48

mass and I would go to mass in in the prison was once a week on Wednesdays uh

41:55

with two guards I would sit in the back uh with two guards that were only focusing in keeping me isolated from the

42:03

rest of the prisoners but um when you are in those situations you get to make

42:11

decisions on a blink So I would look at the people and just by the way they looked at me I knew who

42:17

was with me and who was against the prisoners. I'm talking about and there is a part of mass that you stand up and you you you give peace to people. Mhm.

42:24

And that was part of the liturgy. So the guards couldn't do anything. So I would stand up and I would tell the people

42:30

that I knew were with me or I thought that they were with me said peace be with you my brother tell your wife to

42:36

look for my wife. So my wife when she was waiting for me for visits, she would

42:43

be uh approached by all of these other women and I created a network and I

42:48

asked her to ask them in what floor they were in what part of the prison. So I

42:54

kept track of who I had in different parts of the prison and we created a

43:00

plan to to take control of the prison. Unlike protests, um you are ready, but

43:06

then something sparks the protest that happens. Boy, it happened here with the

43:12

uh um with the George Floyd and the Black Lives Matter movement. I mean, just something sparks and then you have

43:19

a then you have massive protests. Um so one day the uh the guards mishandled a

43:26

baby and that's a no no in prison. I mean, they opened the diapers and they uh and that enraged the population and

43:34

that sparked the protest and and we had um control of the prison for not 24

43:40

hours, it was less than that. It was like 16 hours. Um but it was uh an incredible moment. Uh we were, you know,

43:47

we were in victory that day and um then they sent 300 more guards to the prison.

43:53

Uh after that things got a lot tighter. for me. Uh but I never regret it. Um

44:02

because actually what we did in prison had an impact outside the prison. Right. So you still so you're still being able

44:08

to impact and it's given you it's giving you purpose. it's you're still able to advance your cause um from prison. But

44:15

you did tell me um about a time where you you you you you did crack or you

44:21

almost cracked and you sort of said that hey you know you're not fearful but I think there were I mean again just from

44:27

a human perspective you're away from different not from fear but from so

44:33

so after four years I got sent to house arrest right because there was another

44:38

cycle of protest and they thought that by taking me to house arrest the

44:44

protests were going to fade away. So being in house arrest, I called for

44:49

protest again and I got a call at the time um the Pence was vice president and

44:58

I got a call from Vice President Pence and he asked me in the call, do you mind if we make this call public? I said no.

45:04

Um so that same day I call for protest, I get that call and um couple of days

45:11

afterwards I got sent back to prison and that was like descending into hell again

45:20

and that I I was sent to a punishment cell. I had no idea of the time of the

45:28

day. It was very very cold. Um and I was claustrophobic. I had no no sense of um

45:38

of of where I was. And that was the the one time I broke. Um I thought of um the

45:47

worst thing a human being can think of. There was a a cable um it was an

45:52

electricity a cable jacket. So I took the cable out, started, you know, to

45:57

think um bad things about what to do with that cable. And

46:03

then I the cable had a copper uh you know cable inside. I started like

46:10

tweaking and just playing with it. And I built a rosary with that with that. And

46:15

uh what could have been you know the element of taking my life became an

46:21

element of supporting me with faith. So you so this struck me when we first

46:26

talked. Um, so you so you you're looking at this wire and you're

46:31

thinking, you know, it might be better off if I'm not around. Yeah. You know, and and then and this is when you don't

46:38

have control of your mind, right? No, no, no. This is happening. Just it's

46:44

claustrophobic. The walls are falling on me. I have no sense of time. Can't breathe. you know, you just it's so

46:52

you're thinking of taking this wire and and just ending it and and and what what what made you so you sort

47:00

of went from that point to to to sort of fashioning? Yeah. Right. To to use the

47:07

wire to to build something beautiful. What what what changed? What made you I

47:12

don't know. I don't know. I mean, I just started to handle the wire in in such a

47:17

way. I said, "Oh, you know, copper is is very malleable." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's just started doing knots

47:24

and I did a cross and, you know, another knot. I said, "Well, let me do a rosary." And and then once I had that, I

47:32

mean, it was not a wire. It was a symbol. Yeah. It was a symbol. It was a symbol of faith. It was a symbol of of

47:38

um of of of of something that I could step on at that time. And and it was

47:45

very powerful. I still have it. I gave it to my mother when I when I left prison. Uh that's the one thing I I kept

47:52

with me. I gave it to my mother and um it it was a kind of a journey from

47:59

from the darkness darkest of the dark uh to seeing. So, but I I think too I mean

48:07

you say yeah that's a uh at that point you had already I guess

48:13

you can say it was your faith that that helped you through that but had you not

48:18

built that beforehand you know throughout the seven years that you were you were praying and you know I don't

48:25

think that would had maybe not had the same effect. Yeah, you're you're right.

48:31

um was a buildup uh and that you know at a critical moment um that was kind of a

48:38

a tool that I was able to reach out to and that that's why I think that no people should have a spiritual dimension

48:44

whatever it is you know but but that's it's just very important that us as

48:50

human beings understand that we are not in control of everything you know there

48:55

are some you know a higher well we we talked earlier about sometimes in the

49:02

history of you know physicians that there were times where physicians had this god complex some physicians where

49:09

they felt like you know I'm in control and and you know a lot of those uh now

49:14

now I think it's different I think the training is better frankly but I think you're right when you humble yourself

49:19

and know that you're that there's something greater than you um it makes you operate in a in a very different way

49:26

but I think the thing that strikes me about um what you said there is that the the wire the the copper wire it could be

49:34

anything, right? It actually could be the implement of your pain and suffering and and and and your and and and and

49:42

weakness in a way. Um and then it was also the same tool was also a sign of

49:48

your strength and your faith and your power and your resilience. And I think that that's a you know that's a point

49:54

that we really you know I think that we forget as human beings. We often look at

49:59

a tool or an item or an event as one or the other. And here you took something

50:05

and they were both for you and you quickly turned. I I I I really think you're you you talk about your faith,

50:11

but I think there have been times in my life, you know, um where I don't know

50:17

why I did something, you know, and I think this is, you know, when you said you're fashioning the rosary, I can almost

50:24

imagine that it was similar to times in my life where I would do things and I'm

50:30

like, I don't remember. I don't understand why I do this. It almost felt like somebody was supporting me through

50:36

that, you know, whether it's subconscious or higher being or you God or whatever. But I I think that that's

50:42

so so amazing um to just remember, sit back and think about it's the tool is

50:49

not important. It's actually how you interpret and use that tool, how you approach it and approach that in your

50:54

life. So, so, so you you built this rosary and then you're back and then you're you're

51:00

back to the the same person you then I'm back then then I was taken back to house arrest. Okay. So, you got back out and

51:07

um you just time went by then sent back to house arrest. Um house arrest was tough like like

51:15

prison. Um because they made my house and my family

51:20

um being in prison. So my kids had to go to school and they had to go through a checkpoint

51:28

of, you know, hooded individuals with machine guns. Um, nobody can come into

51:33

my house. I was surrounded by 40 guards. Um, and

51:40

I thought every day that I could be taken back to prison. So it was very

51:48

unstable. In a way, prison was more stable than house arrest because I knew I was there. There was nowhere to go

51:55

from prison. But from house arrest, my family was exposed. My kids were exposed

52:01

and I knew that because they already done it. Meaning they already took me from house arrest back to prison. So I

52:07

knew that this could happen. So I I spent months there. I was very active,

52:14

still leading the movement. led a coalition that uh actually before uh

52:21

house arrest um we had elections for the national assembly and before that

52:27

election I did a 28 day hunger strike uh because the regime was not setting the

52:34

date to the election. So, we wanted to do a a hunger strike, but I had read about

52:44

hunger strikes and about how important is to plan them. The key of a hunger

52:49

strike is that you have a petition that

52:54

is viable in a period no more than 30 35

53:00

days because if not, you're going to fail. I mean, you're going to you're either

53:06

going to die or you're going to fail. So, the key is that your petition is

53:12

something that could happen in a short period of time. So, I knew at the time

53:18

that there was a lot of pressure to set the date of the election. So, I decided

53:24

to do a hunger strike and we made it public. more than 100 prisoners

53:30

throughout the country uh went into hunger strike and more than 150 people

53:35

outside prisons also went on hunger strike. So the hunger strike became the focal point uh for to pressure the

53:43

regime to um to set the day of the election. Okay. So you're you're just so

53:48

it's just water daily. You just Yeah. I had a I I was able to get I had water,

53:55

salt, and um and and Yeah, that was it. Wow. And I mean, not not not to I lost

54:02

14 kg. I was going to say like I mean and it's not like I'm I'm I'm on the heavy side. Yeah. And you're not you're

54:08

you're a thin, you know, you're very in shape. I mean, I I don't know if I can not eat for 35 seconds, you know. I

54:15

mean, I'm I'm like, you know, I got I got a little extra here in 35 days. So, how long did it actually go? No. No, it

54:21

was 28 days. The whole 28 28 days. Yeah. So you So you not eaten for 20 and they did and they did pass the petition.

54:28

Yeah. And we won. Wow. That's amazing. That's amazing. And it's actually You have a strength, Leopold. Every time I

54:34

talk to you, you have a strength that is unparalleled. Your your strength

54:40

is I mean your your ability to sacrifice. I use that word. I don't like

54:45

the word sacrifice, by the I think it's a I think it's a it's a very because there's a lot of things that we do that

54:51

are self-interested and there's really no true sacrifice, but I mean, you're

54:56

literally putting your life on the line, putting yourself at risk. Um, and I think that that is true sacrifice and I

54:56

literally putting your life on the line, putting yourself at risk. Um, and I think that that is true sacrifice and I

55:03

I'm just I'm intrigued by your strength. Um, where where do you think that

55:08

because I want to ask you another question. I know we have more of the story, but I want to ask you another question right after this. Where do you

55:13

think that strength comes from? Well, I I don't know. It's It's just the way I

55:21

am and the way I was brought up. Um, so you you don't see that as strength. You see that as sort of the just the way

55:27

this is how you are. I mean, I I think if you kind of

55:32

overanalyze, you know, what you are, you might be kind of Yeah. You're doing

55:39

too much. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just just the way I approach uh life. Um I I

55:45

I do think that sports and my upbringing with extreme sports um put me always on

55:52

that edge. Yeah. Um yeah, I think that that was important. And also of course

55:57

the most important thing is to to have a purpose. Yes. And and to have a purpose

56:02

um that you approach that you work towards with no drama, you know. Yeah.

56:09

in the sense that you don't put the entire way that you know I'm doing this.

56:15

I'm a great person and you know people need to recognize me because I think one key

56:22

thing is that you do what you do for your own conviction. Yes. Because I've

56:27

been on top and I've been at the bottom. You know, I've been rallying with

56:33

500,000 people and I've been at the spotlight of being criticized for not

56:38

taking the dictatorship down. So, I've been at the top, I've been at the bottom, you know, I've been in that roller coaster. And you're still you.

56:44

You're still practically you. Yeah. and and you know the dictatorship uh and this is true for dictatorships globally

56:51

and later we will talk about what I'm doing um with the world liberty congress but they go after you in in

57:00

assassinating your character right this is something that they put a lot of effort and I have been at the center of

57:07

character assassination uh by the regime for years I mean the things that they

57:12

say the type of attacks so if you are not in terms with who you are,

57:19

you are not capable of overcoming this. So, you need to look at the self

57:25

yourself in the mirror and say, you know, I know who I am. Yeah. You know, I know why I do the things I do. I mean,

57:31

I'm not going to allow somebody else to tell me who I am, right? I'm not going to allow, you know, social media or the

57:38

attacks of the of the regime uh to determine um the way I look at myself. I

57:43

know who I am. I know. Um, so one of the things I talk about is um that I learned

57:49

I learned through just you know my leadership journey and through writing this book is that you know I think the

57:56

perfect the thing we need to get to is being authentically yourself and that's what you have right and and so I I kind

58:03

of call that authentically self part is is your superpower. I I I think

58:08

everybody has a superpower. I mean, we don't know it. And I I I love I would love to do that with people to be able

58:14

to sit down with them and talk to them like we're talking now and really think about, okay, what's your superpower? So,

58:20

what do you think your superpower is? If you had to pick one thing that is like,

58:26

you know, Superman flies, you know, Batman's rich, you know, there's all these different superpowers. But if you

58:32

What is your one superpower? I'll tell you my wife and my kids. Wow. Wow.

58:40

Superpower. Your superpower is that connection. Oh, yeah. Okay. I I would have been capable of overcoming all of

58:46

this without my wife. Yeah. Yeah. And

58:53

this is the Less than 1% podcast. Tune in to the next episode for part two.