Part 1: How Malcolm Gladwell Analyzes Peak Performance

1:03

So, I'm curious. So, I'm The first thing

1:05

I want to ask you is

1:07

Oh, we're rolling. Are we

1:08

Are we rolling? Oh, we are rolling.

1:10

Okay.

1:10

You want to You good?

1:12

Yeah. Good.

1:13

I want to know what you thought of the

1:15

book. I I I really want some feedback. I

1:17

need I need This is a history. This is a

1:20

I loved Well, I love

1:21

an opportunity that I wouldn't get.

1:23

Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, I I love the way

1:27

I've I love the way you use sports as a

1:29

as a kind of window into thinking about

1:33

uh performance, about potential, about

1:37

um because I think that's it's and I've

1:41

never seen I mean was what what I really

1:43

loved was you know some people use the

1:48

occasional sporting example, but you

1:50

sort of

1:51

I dive in on it. you no in a way that

1:53

was I thought was really really

1:55

interesting and it was a like so that I

1:57

I responded to that and it was also a

1:59

way to make a lot of the ideas you were

2:01

talking about way way more accessible

2:04

like that book that was a commercial

2:07

book I

2:10

it should not have been published by an

2:11

obscure

2:13

um not obscure but a small press I think

2:16

that was a com that was a book that like

2:18

um was speaking to very broad themes in

2:20

a way that was very I was very um I was

2:24

very impressed by I know a bunch of

2:25

stuff I had the figure skating stuff was

2:27

fantastic.

‍

2:30

I had no idea I that um and

2:31

finding about about your family and your

2:33

was I almost wanted more there I I I I

2:37

could have had more on your family. Um

2:39

I struggled with that and that's why I

2:41

asked you the question on stage about um

2:44

personal putting you know how much

2:45

personal um you know I was talking with

2:48

my wife yesterday about Orion and that

2:52

like I literally have posttraumatic

2:54

stress disorder like I don't I cannot I

2:57

feel as bad about it today as I did the

3:00

first day which is which is not healthy

3:03

right like it's just not healthy but I

3:04

can't I and I'm unwilling to sort of let

3:07

it go because I just keep working right

3:09

Um but uh that was really hard to write.

3:12

Um and then more than being hard to

3:14

write it was a vulnerability that I did

3:17

not want in the world. Not just for me

3:20

but also for him.

3:21

Yeah.

3:22

Uh so that that was the that's why I

3:24

asked you that question.

3:25

Yeah.

‍

3:28

But I have we talked earlier about my

3:29

circuitous path. Like I have so many

3:32

weird things like I've been on fire, you

3:34

know, like if like it's just unrelated.

3:37

So he said, "Put more stories in there."

3:39

I could have told you how I was on fire

3:41

in in Ohio

3:44

and uh I was in medical school and uh

3:48

basically so I I you know my it's my

3:51

butt and my lap because there's a

3:54

there's a candle that sort of flashes

3:56

some alcohol and and so I go up. Um,

4:00

there's a wall between me and the

4:02

bathroom and I try to jump through the

4:04

wall cuz your mind is not correct cuz

4:06

I'm trying to get to water and um, so

4:10

anyway, the the interesting thing for

4:12

you which was similar to Amadalo

4:16

is I go down this staircase and not to

4:19

gross you out but that we have dogs like

4:21

little small Pomeranians and the skin

4:24

sloughing off and they're going after

4:26

the skin to eat

4:30

terrible. So I get down. So, I finally

4:33

like I get some something to cover me

4:35

cuz I have shorts on, but they were kind

4:37

of burned. And I walk out of the This is

4:41

now this is this is Cincinnati, right

4:44

across from the medical center, but you

4:47

know, most medical centers in most of

4:48

those Midwest towns, it's surrounded by

4:50

areas that

4:52

they don't, you know,

4:53

not great,

4:53

not the greatest areas. And

4:56

I look like the people who people are

4:58

looking for in not the greatest areas.

5:01

And I'm screaming. So all the way down

5:02

from I'm get burned. I'm screaming,

5:04

screaming, screaming. I'm coming down

5:05

the stairs. I'm still screaming. So I

5:07

get to the door. I open the door. Now my

5:09

wife is trying to get keys. She's

5:11

literally going to drive me there cuz

5:12

we're just down the hall. We're both in

5:13

medical school.

5:15

And um and I open the door and there's

5:19

like six red dots like just circling my

5:22

chest. And I you know, we grew up in

5:24

Canada like I'm red dots. And

5:26

cops had gun on you.

5:28

They're so I look at the dots cuz I

5:29

don't know. I can was looking down

5:31

because I think because of the burns and

5:32

I see the red dots. I'm like, "What is

5:34

so I look up and there's like five cops

5:40

with guns pointed

5:42

get on the ground and it's Cincinnati in

5:46

winter. It's like January, December,

5:48

January, it's snowing, you know, so

5:51

there's snow all over the ground and I'm

5:52

just like I don't want to die.

5:55

Obviously, I've had this the history

5:57

that, you know, I write about it in the

5:59

book uh to some extent. So, I get down

6:01

on the ground. It's the funniest thing

6:03

in the world. My wife comes through the

6:05

door, you know, now she comes down,

6:08

these guys have the guns pointed and

6:09

she's like, "He's burned." And she takes

6:12

she takes her hand and the first guy

6:14

that's there with the gun, she just hits

6:15

the gun. She just hits like he's burned.

6:19

So then they kind of get shocked almost

6:21

out of that moment in the the moment

6:23

that you talk about with Amadu is the

6:25

moment that she actually kind of

6:28

disrupted really. So then and it's funny

6:31

because in I think because I was acutely

6:34

injured I remember

6:37

little things that you wouldn't normally

6:38

you know like this the drop slows down.

6:41

I remember the snow falling. I can

6:42

remember their their faces. And as soon

6:44

as she did that, it was like she shocked

6:46

they shocked them or she shocked them

6:49

out of what they wanted to do. And they

6:50

all just stopped and they're like, "Oh,

6:53

you're actually you're hurt. You're

6:54

injured." I said, "Yeah." And so then

6:56

they called the rig and they, you know,

6:58

they got me set up and she's like, "No,

7:00

I'm just going to drive him down. It's

7:01

like literally, you know, six blocks."

7:05

Um, but they, you know, they they've got

7:07

the rig. They're like, "No, you stay."

7:09

Um, so anyway, so that's the story. Then

7:11

went to the hospital and

7:13

third what? Third degree burns.

7:14

Second. Yeah. Yeah. So I had third

7:16

degree. So I was I was admitted

7:19

and then

7:21

relentless was my superpower. So I'm

7:24

like they're like, "Hey, we have to do

7:26

graph. We got to put get stuff from your

7:28

back, put on your legs." And and I'm

7:30

like, "No, you're not going to do that."

7:33

So I'm in fourth I'm a fourth year

7:34

medical student. So I'm like, "Just give

7:37

me some meds." And so I they give me

7:39

meds, I get up and I get discharged from

7:43

the hospital and my wife took care of me

7:44

for three months at home and everything

7:49

actually healed up fantastically which

7:51

is interesting because I didn't get the

7:53

pres, you know, the the treatment.

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7:54

Anyway, that was longer than I wanted it

7:56

to be, but I just wanted to let you know

7:58

the story.

7:58

Wow.

7:59

You had the time of it. You know, this

8:01

is it's so interesting the difference

8:03

between so you and I have, you know,

8:06

similar background, but this doesn't

8:08

happen to me just because

8:10

difference between that and that.

8:12

Yeah.

8:13

My dad's white, I'm light-skinned.

8:16

So, I I I think the vulnerable stories

8:19

are a challenge, but when you talked

8:22

about emotion also, I thought, yeah,

8:24

that's how you get emotional, letting

8:26

let you know you've been through some

8:27

things. So,

8:28

so how how did you um what was your your

8:31

experience when speaking to different

8:33

crowds? Is it do you get different vibes

8:35

from different crowds depending on what

8:38

they do?

8:40

A little less than you'd think people's

8:44

identity. It's more the fact that I tend

8:47

to be speaking to

8:49

people

8:51

30s, 40s, 50s,

8:55

uh, professionals.

8:58

Many have families.

9:00

Those facts are far more important than

9:05

their professional orientation. I mean,

9:07

it's a little bit different if you're

9:08

talking to a room full of software

9:10

engineers,

9:12

but not that much. Um, and you think

9:16

about even in medicine is really

9:17

interesting because people really

9:20

there's a there's a whole series of

9:22

different motivations for people going

9:24

into that

9:26

world.

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9:26

So, you get an incredible variety

9:28

of people. Like, it's not like there's a

9:31

doctor type.

9:32

It's not a doctor type. It's like I mean

9:34

there's what they have in common is they

9:36

want to heal people, but like there are

9:38

five different routes to wanting to heal

9:40

people, right? Um, and

9:42

I'm giggling because I two things. What

9:45

What did you want to make fun of me

9:46

about? What did you said? You said we

9:48

had more time. Tell me. I

9:50

would I just would have responded more

9:52

to I just would have like, you know, I

9:54

like I could have you because you you're

9:58

you enjoy that kind of so I thought I

10:02

could have liked that.

10:04

Uh, so uh 100 400 what was what were

10:08

your events? 1500 meters. 5800 meters.

10:12

Wow. I was

10:13

You were better at

10:14

50. I was the age class national record

10:18

holder for the 1500 meters. When I was

10:20

14, I was I had the Canadian record.

10:24

That's amazing. I didn't know that. You

10:26

still run now?

10:27

Uhhuh. I ran on the beach yesterday.

10:30

Really?

10:30

I got a good workout in. Yeah.

10:32

Oh, that's awesome.

10:32

Yeah. Yeah.

10:33

So, when you run like how far yesterday?

10:36

If I do a long run, it'll be like 8 n 10

10:38

miles. If I do, yesterday I was doing

10:42

uh intervals on the beach.

10:43

Wow.

10:44

Like half miles.

10:45

When you do intervals on the beach, do

10:46

people recognize you?

10:48

No.

10:48

No.

10:49

It's like

10:51

also I'm out of context, you know. Yeah.

10:53

Right.

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10:51

Wearing a pair of shorts and

10:54

Right. Right. Um,

10:56

but uh

10:57

Yeah.

10:58

Yeah. It's like a it's become I'm not

11:00

serious around anymore, but I you do

11:03

need

11:05

it's a

11:07

you know, you need some kind of physical

11:09

release from all of this.

11:13

Yeah. To your point about the book, I I

11:15

struggled uh I struggled with this book

11:18

on what to do with it. Um you know, I

11:21

had I'm in a weird space. Um, even

11:24

having you here. Um, yesterday I had

11:27

Buster Rhymes at our by 2D Caris

11:30

concert.

11:30

Oh, really?

11:31

Yeah. Yeah. No, sorry. The day before

11:33

yesterday. So, I'm trying to bring

11:35

worlds that don't necessarily go

11:38

together because healthcare you kind of

11:39

think stiff, stodgy,

11:40

you know, I'm I'm trying to blow it all

11:42

up because I think that if we can learn,

11:44

to your point, if we can learn

11:46

from other people that are outside

11:48

healthcare, we can solve problems in new

11:50

ways that we didn't have before. So,

11:52

with the book, I struggled with it

11:54

because I think in some ways I am a

11:57

titan in healthcare. I mean, I'm the I

12:00

mean, I think I'm the only black

12:03

definitely the only Jamaican, but I'm

12:04

the only black um healthcare leader in

12:08

this space and definitely with the size

12:11

we have, you know, one of the biggest.

12:12

And so, in that world, I can do a lot of

12:17

different things. in the worlds I want

12:19

to be in, which is writing and sort of

12:23

connecting people that don't necessarily

12:25

go together to solve amazing problems

12:26

they never knew they could solve. Um,

12:29

nobody. And so that's where the book

12:31

fell. The book fell into

12:35

and you know, you know how the industry

12:36

is now, especially what's your platform?

12:39

You know, how many books can I sell if

12:41

if I sign you? And uh, so I got super

12:44

frustrated with that and I was like, I

12:46

got a story to tell. I'm just going to,

12:47

you know, put it out there. So, it's,

12:49

and I'm sure you in the industry, you

12:52

know how it works. It's sort of like, do

12:54

you have an amazing story to tell story

12:56

to tell that you can get out there or do

12:58

you wait for somebody to say it's okay

12:59

to get out there?

13:01

Yeah. Well, presumably

13:04

there's all kinds of you got other books

13:06

in you. So, it's a long, you know, it's

13:08

a it's a books are a long journey. You

13:10

build you have to build over time.

‍

13:14

right now I'm writing uh I'm writing

13:19

about uh you know the working title is

13:22

called almost it um and it's called

13:25

almost the subtitle is the other side of

13:27

winning and it's was sparked by Sria

13:30

Bonaly who I mean worldrenowned right

13:34

never won you know Olympics world

13:37

championships never won and there's all

13:39

those stories of all those amazing

13:41

people where when they win,

13:44

you write stories about them. You

13:46

absolutely say every, you know, you you

13:48

go into detail. When they lose, even by

13:50

the slimmest of margins, you don't write

13:53

anything about him. So, it starts with

13:55

um Merlin Audi, of course, Jamaica.

13:58

Oh, yeah.

13:58

And uh

13:59

perennial silver medalist.

14:01

Yeah. It's like that's you're the you're

14:03

the most decorated Jamaican sprinter,

14:06

but because you never won, Jamaica

14:08

doesn't even want you anymore in some

14:10

respect. Yeah.

14:10

And you don't want to make anymore.

14:12

You know, you know what story you should

14:14

tell as well? She's a great example, but

14:16

I'm obsessed with I think the single

14:18

greatest one of the greatest sporting

14:21

accomplishments of the last 25 years is

14:25

Tom Watson

14:27

at the age of 59

14:30

loses the British Open in a playoff.

14:32

Wow. Well,

14:34

on a miss.

14:36

And if he makes the putt, it's cons it's

14:39

considered the one of the greatest

14:40

performances of all time. But my point

14:41

is it's still the greatest per one of

14:43

the greatest performance of all time.

14:44

Just because he misses a putt in a

14:46

playoff does not turn this from he was

14:49

59.

14:50

And so so that that emotion to your

14:52

point that emotion is what I want from

14:54

everybody. Yeah.

14:55

Is to understand that

14:57

I mean it's almost forgotten greatness

14:59

that we have all these people that have

15:00

been absolutely amazingly great that we

15:03

just throw away. Um, you know, Merlene

15:05

lost um, you know, that race in Atlanta.

15:10

They didn't even have the technology to

15:12

figure out how much she lost by. I don't

15:14

know if you remember, right? She lost to

15:16

Dvers and she had lost to Dvers four

15:19

years earlier and they sat on the track

15:22

for probably what seemed like an

15:24

eternity. It was probably like about 20

15:26

minutes. They didn't know who won and

15:28

they didn't have the technology to go

15:29

frame by frame and they also didn't have

15:31

the rule which you know to your point

15:33

about data teams and all I'm diving into

15:36

you know track like I did with the ISU

15:39

to understand they didn't have the torso

15:41

rule so they're trying to figure out

15:44

cuz Merlin kind of crossed first but

15:46

Dra's torso was first so finally what

15:48

they decided is that Das was first and

15:51

they went by a margin that they didn't

15:53

even have the technology to determine

15:56

but if We I didn't realize it was that

15:57

close. If we went back and relooked at

15:59

it today using today's Would she have

16:02

Would Merina have won

16:03

that? I need to I need to look in I need

16:05

to look into that. What I would love to

16:06

do, which again, if

16:07

Do you know Marina?

16:08

Um I have access to her. So I I know um

16:11

so Shel and Fraser Price is going to be

16:13

on my podcast. Um we're actually going

16:15

to film it here in Miami um now that

16:17

she's back home in Jamaica. Um and so my

16:19

hope is to get um her, Bolt, and then

16:23

Merlene. They all had the same trainer

16:25

that a friend of mine has access to. So

16:28

Oh wow.

‍

16:28

Yeah. So if I can I I would love to get

16:32

her.

16:32

She had an incredible career.

16:34

Well, this is you know you you should

16:35

get into this. This is super interesting

16:37

that

16:39

there's two we have two modes of

16:42

thinking about successful careers. One

16:44

is we measure it by the height of the

16:46

peak performance

16:48

or we can measure it by someone's

16:50

longevity. And I think we massively

16:53

underestimate longevity and overestimate

16:55

peak performance. So Merl would be the

16:57

perfect example of this. Um or in music

17:01

I think that I I'm obsessed with Paul

17:04

Simon.

17:05

Paul Simon is productive in his teens,

17:09

20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. He was

17:13

never at any one moment as big as the

17:16

Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan or

17:20

you know Taylor Swift but his career is

17:23

so the sheer amount of productivity over

17:26

time is so great that I think that makes

17:28

him

17:30

uh I think that over that that is more

17:33

important than the fact that his peak is

17:35

lower and we don't like longevity is

17:37

just like we take it for granted we

17:40

well so that So that brings up LeBron

17:43

and Mike then, which is the classic

17:46

debate, you know, which is longevity

17:49

versus

17:50

versus peak

17:50

versus peak.

17:51

Yeah. Although LeBron's peak is pretty

17:53

high, too.

17:53

Yeah.

17:54

But I mean that on that one. Yeah.

17:56

That's it's why it's complicated. But I

17:59

if you definitely in peak, if you ask me

18:01

who would I rather have on my team at

18:03

their peak, it's Michael.

18:06

Yeah, it's hand Yeah, it's hands down.

18:08

It's not even close. Sorry, LeBron.

18:11

It's hard to say that, but why does

18:13

every everyone feel I mean, it's just

18:16

like I don't know what it was.

‍

18:15

So, I'm going to be vulnerable and just,

18:22

you know, tell me to not film or to cut

18:26

it or whatever. So, in many ways, um,

18:30

like in a leadership world, so you the

18:31

CEO, previous CEO of our partnership was

18:34

in the audience. um he was black and uh

18:38

it I I was never really groomed for the

18:40

position he read the book, right? It was

18:42

just sort of like, hey, you pissed me

18:44

off and I went and did it. Um but

18:46

there's a level of I think for him

18:48

legacy in,

18:51

you know, hey, you know, I feel like the

18:54

the company's a better place now. For

18:57

writing, in many ways, your legacy is

19:01

what you've written. And not that

19:03

anybody's even really concerned about

19:04

that. I think most people write because

19:06

they love it. But do you find that there

19:08

are

19:10

you wake up one morning and say I do

19:12

this work in the world because your

19:15

writing is very unique and who's going

19:18

to take that mantle. Do you think about

19:20

that or is that something you're just

19:22

like

19:24

I suppose I don't think about that.

19:28

Uh because I have I mean in my world I

19:32

have full confidence

19:34

that there there's always going to be a

19:36

group of creative people.

19:40

I just because I know that I've been so

19:42

influenced by this group of creative

19:43

people who've come before me that stands

19:46

to reason there'll be another group that

19:47

come after me. So I don't really it's

19:49

different I think in

19:52

uh

19:54

when you're thinking about an

19:55

organization which can go away.

19:57

Right. Right. you screw up,

20:00

we could wake up and there could be no.

20:03

Whereas an artist's influence endures,

20:07

it can't vanish. It's like it's always

20:09

there for someone to kind of um so it's

20:12

it's a slightly different problem to

20:13

wrestle with. But I don't think I'm not

20:15

someone who spends a lot I don't

20:16

conceptualize

20:18

my career in any way.

‍

20:26

I just get up in

20:20

the morning and

20:21

as a reader

20:24

there and you may believe this about

20:26

yourself but as a reader there's no one

20:29

in your in your genre and the reason I

20:32

know that is because

20:35

we were trying to pick genres from my

20:37

book and they asked me they said well

20:39

what where would you want to be and I

20:42

said the only person that I I wouldn't

20:45

say respect I respect a lot of writers

20:46

like you know obviously um Simon helped

20:49

me with this. I mean, I know a lot of

20:52

different people in, you know, sort of

20:54

in different ways, but I don't feel like

20:57

no, there's another person who can

20:59

really capture the genre you're in. Um,

21:03

and it's it's so it's so it's so unique

21:06

that it um which is which is really, you

21:10

know,

21:12

maybe it's the way Jamaicans speak. I

21:15

mean, maybe that's it. The way Jamaican

21:17

my This is live. This is live in my

21:20

head. It's not fully thought out.

21:24

Are you Are you a Treky? Do you watch

21:26

Star Trek at all?

21:28

I know about it. But

21:28

so there's an episode in Star Trek where

21:30

Captain Mar gets stuck on an island on

21:32

on a planet and he has to speak to some

21:35

alien which is and there's no translator

21:39

and the person doesn't speak in the

21:42

typical this word equals that word.

21:45

speak in riddles and rhymes and emotion.

21:48

And so, you know, he wants to he wants

21:51

to talk about sadness and it was the the

21:54

words he used was when the walls fell.

21:56

It was some great battle when the walls

21:58

fell and you know the feeling of that

22:00

and that's what that meant. And that's

22:02

how I feel you right. Um, and it's how

22:05

my parents talk to me, which is which is

22:08

when they're telling me the story, I can

22:10

almost ignore the details of the story,

22:13

but they're talking about, you know,

22:15

Nanny or they're talking about an a

22:18

Nancy, you know,

22:20

and

22:21

and I I find your writing is that way.

22:23

‍

22:21

So, I I I don't know if anybody has ever

22:25

Yeah. No, that's very kind. I don't um I

22:28

feel like I feel like it's

22:31

uh you know it's not my role. I I feel

22:34

uncomfortable dwelling spending too much

22:37

time analyzing what I do because I think

22:41

it gets in the way of I don't I'm not

22:43

someone who dwells on past much. I'm all

22:46

about what I'm going to do today and

22:47

tomorrow. that sort of I think you have

22:49

to have that focus if you want to stay

22:52

um you want to stay productive and um

22:57

and also like you want to stay positive

23:00

because I think there's so many kind of

23:04

there's so many things that can

23:06

interfere with your happiness if you if

23:08

you let them and I'm determined that

23:10

nothing should interfere with my

23:12

happiness and I feel like too a little

23:14

too much selfanalysis is a good way to

23:17

get I think that's a good lesson. I'm

23:19

taking the lessons. I'm taking the

23:21

lessons, coach. I'm taking the lessons.

23:22

I think you I think you're I think

23:25

you're fine. Well, I I do think with the

23:27

writing,

23:29

I think that I've

23:32

I think that there the the the analysis

23:35

the the writing to

23:38

so everybody that I talked to and even

23:42

some of the you know sort of larger you

23:45

know well what they're only two now

23:46

basically they wanted me to write on you

23:50

know business they're like what is this

23:53

like you know because I have a thing

23:55

called culture brilliance, which is, you

23:57

know, the way we maintain our culture.

23:59

And they're like, you know, that that

24:00

that right there. And I'm like, yeah,

24:02

it's not that's what I do for my real

24:05

job. Um, and so, but I'm I'm thinking of

24:10

myself writing. And I think I need to do

24:12

more of what you said, which is stay in

24:14

the moment, tell the story, don't don't

24:18

think about all the spin you can do

24:20

about

24:20

Yeah.

24:21

trying to success. But you can put

24:24

it's not a bad thing to put some of your

24:26

work experiences into the you could I

24:30

feel I that was then the other comment I

24:32

had in reading your book was I did want

24:34

more of I wanted a little more of you. I

24:36

felt there was a lot of

24:38

you know I wanted to understand so who

24:40

is it who is it that's telling me these

24:42

stories? What's motivating them? What's

24:44

driving them? How do they make sense of

24:46

the world they're in?

‍

24:45

How do they make sense of

24:46

the world they're in? It was tooth and

24:48

nail to get me to put in the last

24:51

chapter. The deny

24:53

was totally they're like no you have to

24:56

you have to close with you and you have

24:59

to and I did not

25:02

at all but it's actually one of my

25:04

favorite chapters now because it

25:07

actually brings it all all together.

25:10

That's that's all right. I'm taking,

25:12

like I said, I'm taking the lessons.

25:14

Taking uncomfortably taking the lessons.

25:17

All right. Well, I appreciate you. I

25:18

appreciate you. Thank you for coming by.

25:20

It's really fun. I really enjoy it.

25:22

Okay. We're good.

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