Part 2: How Leopoldo López Survived Political Persecution

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um we gathered like 200 people from 40 countries and we decided to formalize an

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alliance. So a year after that in November of 23 we had over 350 um

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activists from 56 countries and we decided to practice democracy to build

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our movement and we decided to elect our leadership council. So for many of the

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people that were there, this was the first time they voted and I was really

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taken by the fact that people were very sentimental. They were crying and I

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couldn't understand [Music]

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I I I think everybody has a superpower. We We don't know it. And I I I love I would love to do that with people to be

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able to sit down with them and talk to them like we're talking now and really think about, okay, what's your superpower?

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So, what do you think your superpower is? If you had to pick one thing that is

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like, you know, Superman flies, you know, Batman's rich, you know, there's all these different superpowers, but if

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you What is your one superpower? I'll tell you my wife and my kids. Wow. Wow.

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So, superpower. Your superpower is that connection. Oh, yeah. Okay. I I would

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have been capable of overcoming all of this without my wife. Yeah. Yeah. And uh

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and I think that that's the one thing that's kept me going. That's that's so awesome. All right. So, speaking of, so

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in this podcast, we do some wild and crazy things even though we're trying to be serious. And we have a way to you can

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call a family member. We want to get on the call with them and and see if they'll Well, first of all, see if if

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they'll pick up. They are they are in Spain now. So, let's What time is it in Spain? Uh it's around 700 p.m. Okay.

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Okay. I hope he answers the

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phone. So, so Lilian, I'm I'm I'm here with Moo. This is Moo. He was my partner

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at Massive. Hello. How are you? You were just at Massive with Simon. So, Moo,

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this is Lilian, my wife. This is my superpower. And can can you show Moon

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the other superpower, the kids here? Yes. Well, we all all massive. We

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all are massive. That's amazing. That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. So, uh

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nice to meet you. Uh so, we we asked Leopold, we said, "What is what is your superpower?" And he said you were his

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superpower. So, we wanted we wanted to talk to you and and and just say hi.

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Well, that's amazing. Thank you, Leo. Um I think I I am not the superpower. We

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are together a superpower. Wow. That you have a relation uh you know you can be

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married or you can have a very nice friend and one is the relation that you

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have with the person the other is the relation that the person have with you but there are something else is

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something together that's the best part like the best like the the relation the

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real relation is the relation that we build together. Oh, that's amazing. Our

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relation is not only uh you know attractive or or a lover relation. It's

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more than than than that. It's a relation that is involved with our country with our home country. So it's

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there's people around there is people inside our country that we really care

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from our soul. So when Paulo asked me to to to marry with me and and he asked me two

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questions marry if you want married with me and if you married with the country

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that's a a huge question and I answer yes. So that's in that moment we start

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something together. We start a family. We start our relation and we start our

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our commitment to Venezuela. So I'm proud of that. It's hard. It's not easy.

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It's a ch it's a challenge every day. But I think with our love and with the

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power that we build together that day, we continue fighting and we continue working and we

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continue. I think the most important thing is have hope and dream with freedom. Wow. Wow. Okay. I'm You know

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what? I just realized I am moving to Spain. I am going to be part of the family. I am inspired. So, you you have

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another I can be the crazy uncle. How about that? We need We need family. We need uncles.

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We need friends. Yes. And it's amazing. I think we met

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people that really care. Yeah. And really smile when they understand our

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dream and they understand our life and and I always said that happened to

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Venezuela happened for many countries and you are from the United States I think and it's amazing country but I

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really well actually m is from Canada. Manuela show Manuela Manuela. Manuela

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Manuela M is from Canada. Yes. This is my daughter, Manuela. Hi, Manuela. One of my great grandparents is from Canada.

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Manuela thinks of herself as Canadian. You are Canadian. She has the Canadian flag in her room. Yes. Yes. Well, Canada

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is amazing in human rights. I love Canada as well. And I I'm I always

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remember when I started snowboarding with Leo was in Vancouver. So, we a really beautiful remembers of Canada. Um

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it's a amazing country and and it's inspire us for learn from your country, learn from

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United States, learn for Europe and and and dream together to build that country

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that we really want in the future. Wow. Wow. I'm inspired. Well, we appreciate

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the time. I know it's a little weird uh to have people call you on a podcast, but we just wanted he he mentioned that

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you were and and your family um is his superpower and and we appreciate the

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time you spent with us. Thank you, Le. I love you. Thank you.

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All right. Manuia.

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Wow, that's awesome. Well, I I I know I know you wouldn't lie to me. I

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know you wouldn't lie to me, but I can even tell more

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that that they are your superpower. Your face your face just totally lit up. It

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lit up the minute I we I mean just and and and think about it. I mean, I'm not

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sure if I called home if they'd be all day. No, but that that is uh that's so

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beautiful. That's so beautiful. That's so beautiful. Thank you. That I I I see

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how that can be your and that connect like you said and she said it too. The the fact that um but I I I feel like my

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proposal in my marriage was not as good as Leopold. He said he said you have to marry the

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country. Yeah. Oh, you know, we had this thing. I we we were about to get married, but um Lillian actually broke

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up with me because we're not uh we were not engaged. And then we went back and

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then um actually I the the the the moment was

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um very unique because I you know I said I I I want to get married but I don't

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want you to think that I am going to do something else you this is this is what

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I am this is my passion and I mean I don't want to be in the position where we get married and then start getting

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you know pressure for leaving politics. politics or living, you know, what what's my dream? Um, so, uh, we went out

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to a tattoo parlor and we both tattooed Venezuela. I have a map of Venezuela in

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my leg and she has the Venezuela in her wrist. That's awesome. So, it's kind of

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our commitment so we don't we don't forget. Yes. Don't forget. So, I want to ask you about one other tattoo you have.

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Um, but but before that, I I just want to point out something here, Jordan. we talk about, you know, as disruptors.

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There there a lot of characteristics that are similar uh with disruptors and and I think we were talking today that I

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didn't know I was a disruptor. Like going through my leadership journey, I didn't I didn't know that's what I was doing, but every time I saw something

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that wasn't right or I saw a rule that shouldn't be a rule. There was something in me that that made me um you know, had

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a discomfort with it. I could feel that in you. But the thing I talk about is for disruptors, you have to be

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resilient. I mean the and I would even say not just um resilient but almost a a

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compulsion with with the cause or with what you want to fix or what you want to

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disrupt. The second thing that I thought when I heard your story was optimism. And people don't often see disruptors as

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being optimist being, you know, uh, thinking the world is great because you,

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the reason you're disrupting is usually to make the world better. Mhm. Right. And that's so that's a that's a piece I think that in hearing your story and and

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talking to you again about it and and seeing your expression and listening to your wife talk about it, there's an

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optimism. You know, she said that I like to go to these different countries because I like to learn about them, but

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not that I want to learn about them so I can have a greater experience. It's learn about them so I can bring those lessons home to

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Venezuela. Right. That that that's that's super super powerful. Um, no, I

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think optimism is it it's key. Um, because it's very easy to be

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pessimistic. Yes, it's very easy to be in the position of always being in a bad

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mood. Um to be um to see yourself as a victim and I

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have seen because I have so many friends that went through prison and persecution and I can tell you I've become not

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wanting to but in a way an expert of the way people react uh when they go through

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prison. And I have a rule of thumb more or less a third of the people um just

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disengage when they just disengage just I I I I'm out. I'm out. I want to just

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do something different. I don't want anything to do with this. Um, another

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third of the people come out resentful and thinking that the

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that they deserve a level of of recognition that they are never going to

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get. Wow. And then a third of the people come out wanting to fight with more

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enthusiasm. That's more or less a rule of thumb that I have seen. And that third of people that come out expecting

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everybody to recognize what they did, it's a recipe for a frustration. Because if you're expecting recognition and you

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wake up every day expecting recognition, you're never going to get enough. Even if you get all of the recognition, it's

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never going to be enough. But if you wake up not expecting recognition, every bit of recognition that you get, it's a

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world. It's perspective. And it's pragmatically speaking, it's much better to live that way, right? It's much

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better because, you know, you get bits of recognition and you're happy with that. If you're expecting, you know,

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just loads of recognition and it's not going to come and if it comes, it's never enough. It's never enough. You

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know, don't you understand? I went through this sacrifice. Don't you understand that, you know, I went through prison and I Well, you know, no.

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I mean, it's your life. It was my life. I decided to turn myself in. the people in my movement, we all decided to do

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what we did. We knew the risks. Um the the recognition, the ultimate

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recognition is change is to is to bring democracy. I mean, that's the ultimate recognition. Uh but if you're expecting

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personal recognition, and I've seen it with so many of my friends, you know. Yeah. I mean, you're you're you're

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hitting a note with me just in in my role in the number of people that talk about um I want this job or I or I need

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this raise or I need this, you know, people are I used to call it ambition, but I think resentment is a better term

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because what it means is is I deserve I deserve I did this. I deserve. And I

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think what I struggle with is is is is phrasing it the way you did is that any

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recognition you get should should be amazing. You should be doing great work because you want to do great work, not

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because you're looking for, you know, a raise or or a a job title. So, I think

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yeah, the business applications of that, those those three. Yeah. Well, you know what what's taken me to to be just very

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convinced of of this is um that today I

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I admire many leaders. Yeah, I admire many of the same leaders I used to

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admire maybe 20 years ago, but I admire different aspects of their leadership. M

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what I admire the most are the people who have the capacity to cross the

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desert. M and that is not an easy thing because there are some great stories of

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people who were just you know the right person at the right time and the right you know serendipity and boom they did

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you know but there are others that with the circumstances completely against you

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they continued they continued and and I can you know I can mention many uh you

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know Churchill won the second world war and he lost the election you know and uh

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and before that he was not recognized as a leader um in times of peace. Uh many

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of the Venezuelan leaders I admire went through the desert either in exile or in

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prison or even not being recognized by the people at some point. M so I I

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really think that having the capacity to understand the desert and that the

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desert is part of leadership is part of human growth is part of what you are if

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you're not able to be at the bottom you're going to be fragile at the top. Yeah. You know and and and I think that

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capacity to cross the desert um and still be good with yourself. Yeah. you

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know, crossing the desert. This is, you know, this is a part where I need more strength, where I need more focus. And

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and if your entire well-being comes through recognition, you're completely unfit to

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cross the desert. Yeah. Because when you're crossing the desert, you're not getting any recognition. Well, and we

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talked earlier about um something that I um believe in my life and also what

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we're trying to do in the partnership in vitui is the idea that the satisfaction is there. I mean in in the desert, think

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about if you lived your life wanting to be satisfied with what you're doing.

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You'd never make it through the desert. And I think you know when you look at patient satisfaction or physician, we

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look at a lot of provider satisfaction and employee satisfaction. It's really more about fulfillment because you can

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make it through the desert being fulfilled, but you can't make it through the desert being satisfied. No, of

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course. Right. Because you're never going to get satisfied in that, you know, baron of an environment. Um, so so

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I I want to jump to I jump back a little bit cuz the story that intrigued me, not

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the most, but one of the stories that intrigued me is you you told me in prison there was there was a bird. Oh,

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yeah. that that sort of kept coming back to you and you tell me about the bird. Well, you know, I I I was in the fourth

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floor and there was a a tree. Um I had a crack in my window and there was an

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eagle's nest, right? Yeah. So, I had time to contemplate this this bird and

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and I got to know the bird, the the way they made uh the pigeons, the way they

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searched for the food, where they ate, um the way they played. And one day, um

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because I talked about the bird, you remember in Forest Gump when Boua was talking about the shrimp all the time,

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right? So, I was talking about the bird all the time. And so one day the bird

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goes out to get a chicken and he just slams against the barb wire and one of

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the guards tells me, "Oh, you know, your bird just had an accident and it's going to die." I said, "Well, why don't you bring the bird?" Um, so they brought the

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bird and I uh I was able to to spend an entire month and a half. Um, I fed the

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bird and you just became an incredible relation. Then one day, as they did with

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everything, you know, when I was reading, they took my books. When I was drawing, they took my my colors. And

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when I hide the bird, they took the bird away. But so they they took the bird, but the bird went back to the same nest

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to the same tree. So it was, you know, for four years, I had this weird rel I'm

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not a biologist, you know, I'm not a bird watcher, right? you know, just but it just became uh a kind of a a

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a companion that was there. So years after we did that that um after I left,

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I was in Madrid. This is a a year and a two years ago. Uh I'm in Madrid with my

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daughter and then a Venezuelan uh woman comes to me. Hey, Leopoldo, how are you?

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Oh, how are you? Oh, I was with you and Lillian uh with Shell when you did the tattoo of Venezuela. This is 17 years

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ago. Oh, wow. Did you know that Shell is here in Madrid? The the tattoo on. No

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way. Do you have his contact? Yeah. Yeah, I have his contact. So, uh I reach out to him and uh Lillian and I, we go

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there and I said, "I want this drawing of this bird. I want a big tattoo." So,

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I have a tattoo right here. this big tattoo of a of my uh of my companion of

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my birth and it just means a lot to me and it was just a a great way of doing I

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I always wanted to do it after I I left Venezuela but I didn't want to go to whatever tattoo parlor so uh it was kind

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of destiny you know that the same guy that did 17 years ago he happened to

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leave Venezuela go to the same place I was and uh and we did it so it's um in a

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way for me is to make also that part of my life which you know could be the all

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about darkness, all about just just um yeah all about darkness. I I learned in

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my time in prison. I learned and I think I became a better person. I learned the

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skill of self-control. I learned the skill of crossing the desert. I learned

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the skill of being with myself and nobody else. Yeah. Um, so I

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always whatever I do, I always try to take the opportunity of whatever in whatever circumstance I am, I just try

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to make the best of it. Oh, that's awesome. And that was a symbol of uh resilience for me. Just that bird. Yeah.

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So, so now we fast forward, you know, from the bird. you are. So, you're on

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house arrest and you're thinking about now you're thinking about okay this is

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probably not the safest place for my family and my situation that that then

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maybe there maybe we got to do something different and and you that tell us about how you made the transition the year

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2019 2018 um I was in house arrest um it was a very bad year politically speaking

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because Maduro has stolled another election and the democratic movement was

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really torn down. So January of 2019, we had h a window of opportunity because we

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had won the national assembly. As we told you after the hunger strike, there was the election. We won twothirds of

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the national assembly and my movement had the presidency uh for the year 2019.

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And we saw a window in the constitution that stated that if the president elect

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doesn't swear in to the national assembly then the president of the national assembly becomes the interim

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president. Mhm. So we were able and I was able to do this from house arrest just to reach out to the other political

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movements and uh to Colombia and to the United States and we were able to build

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an opportunity to make the um president of the National Assembly the interim

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president and that's what we did and um that was a a very important moment a

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very huge moment uh of our ongoing struggle for freedom in Venezuela. So,

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Juan Guido becomes the interim president. He's from my movement. He's a founder of my movement. And um I was in

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house arrest helping him um through this challenge. And to make a long story

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short, there was a lot of pressure, there was a lot of protest, and there was a lot of international pressure. So,

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um a very high ranking military officer reaches out to me and uh he said he

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sends um message, self-destructive um video with his image and the image of

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a civilian. You know what to make of it. A week after that, that person, that civilian shows up. My house, remember I

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told you, was surrounded by 40 guards. Um so he comes in with permission of

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them and he says, "Well, we want to, you know, we want to help. We want to join, you know, the movement." And uh I said,

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"Well, if you really want to do this, allow me to meet with the people I'm talking to." So, I'd been talking to

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different members of the military, of the police. I had been in a military prison for years. I had run um milit a

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police force for eight years. So, I knew this is this is a group of people I I

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understand. Um so, I started to meet with different people. uh the head of the national police came, the head of

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the political police, uh some lieutenant um colonels that were in charge of the

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security of um different parts of the city. Um and we agreed to a plan to

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combine the civil protest with the protest of the military and the police.

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It was a nonviolent action but but very extreme. Um so on April 30th um I was re

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I was freed from house arrest um with a convoy of military and police that were

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siding with us. They picked me up my house around 4:30 a.m. We went to a place where we gathered around 300 uh

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military and police officers and we called for protest and tens of thousands of people came out to the street. It was

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completely nonviolent, but it was you just higher in the stakes. Uh yeah,

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because yeah, when you get I mean police out there with weapons and everything, even if they don't use them, that's still a higher level. So it was, you

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know, taking the protest to a to another level. We um had coordinated with the

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president of the Supreme Court who was also wanting to side with us a decision

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of the Supreme Court to uh not recognize the election of Maduro and call for new

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elections. That didn't happen. So things didn't happen the way we wanted. So we

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had to manage that day. That was a big crisis. And I ended up that day um

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seeking uh refuge at the Spanish embassy. M so my kids uh were with my

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parents in Spain. Um I they left like 3 weeks before that. Uh the situation was

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getting very tense. So my two elder kids left and my wife and my young daughter

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um went with me to the embassy. They escaped Venezuela after a month and I

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stayed there for a year and a half. The embassy was under siege. They um got the

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electricity, the trash service. There were drones over the embassy. It was surrounded by police. And uh I was there

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with the um the ambassador, a great person, Jesus Silva, and his wife and a

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group of the equivalent of the Navy Seals of Spain. So I became very good friends with these folks. We would

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train, you know, as I told you before, I like combat sports. I like training. So we would train twice a day. Um I was

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working very hard uh to support Wido and everything that we were doing. And um

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after a year and a half they changed the ambassador and I knew that things were

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going to change and my mother was very sick. She was uh going through dialysis.

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Uh she was waiting for a kidney transplant and this is 2020 and she got

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infected with COVID. M so imagine you know my mother who was 76 at the time uh

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going through dialysis being in co so you know I was this is this is a calling

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I had not seen my father and my for seven years I had not seen my mother for years I had not seen my wife and my kids

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for more than a year and a half so I decided to leave Venezuela so I had to

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put my organize my escape Um and I called a friend uh with whom we've done

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different things. Um and um I had spoke with him before. I said one day I'm

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going to call you and I'm just going to say hey man and you know what you have to do. So I called him up. I say hey my

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man. And uh he organized the escape. the

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country was in complete lockdown uh not just because of COVID but because of the political circumstance. So it was very

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risky. We couldn't go through the shore of the Caribbean Sea. We couldn't go through the west uh to Colombia. Um so

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we had to go south. Um so I leave the embassy in the trunk of a car that was

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uh a diplomatic license plate. Um I go from that car to another car. from that

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car. We go to an office building. I go to the basement of that office building and I see a group of my friends and they

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were all uh dressed uh as um members of the electricity uh company. So he had

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taken control of a truck of the electricity company and they all had uniforms. So we spent the next 45

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minutes uh rehearsing you know who we were. If you're in a disguise operation,

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there are two things you need to be very aware of. You need to answer uh the

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question of who you are and why are you there, right? And the status of being

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and status of action. Spycraft 101, right? So, so spycraft, we we're the

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same age. You mentioned Spycraft. So, uh um you know, we 45 minutes. My

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role was to be the assistant of the assistant of the assistant and to be sick. It was COVID at the time. There

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was no vaccine in the horizon yet, right? So, um, we, you know, we had the uniforms. I had my ID card, the hat. We

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crossed like 20 checkpoints. Um, it's all good. We reached the southern border

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with Colombia. It was a river, the Meta River, and there was nobody at the at

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that checkpoint. So, we we go through that checkpoint. We're in the boat. Uh

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the engine is on and then we see like six military coming running to us with

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their machine guns pointing at us and calling us to uh step out of the boat,

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go to the checkpoint. My friend takes the lead as we had planned and um they

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start asking all sorts of questions and of course they asked the ID. remember it was co so I was not talking I was

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coughing and we all had the masks and this was very important because everybody knew who I was right right um

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so my friend had a backpack in the backpack he had some cash and the

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lieutenant there asked him so who are you not from the electricity company why were you crossing to Colombia and he

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says all right I want to tell you the truth um we are um you know I have a case against me what case you have

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against you know I have a judicial case against me it's not political Right. No, no, no, no, no, no. It's not political.

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It's financial. You know, I work in a bank. And I said, "Okay, so let me call the general." And my friend was very

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quick and he said, "Whoa, whoa, wait, wait. If you call him, you know what's going to happen? You know that cash that

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you have in your hands, it's going to go to him. Why don't you think through?" He thought about it for like 30 seconds.

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And uh, you know, this was 45 minutes of just I was getting flashbacks of my time

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at prison. The river was right there. I was sitting next to a friend. I said, you know, I am not going to go back. I

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am if if things get tough, I am going to go to river and I'm going to try to swim

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my way out. I just want to let you know I'm not going to go back. I'm not going to give Maduro a victory of catching me

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at the last right right at the very end of it. You know, it's just going to make this a huge

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victory. I'm not going to give that to him. But fortunately, you know, we were able to um uh walk our way out and we

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cross the border, get to Colombia. The then the secret police of uh Colombia

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was waiting for me because we are reach out. We had a an ally president at the time, Ivan Duk, very close friend. Um

31:05

they put me in a plane. They fly me to Bogotaa. In Bogotaa, I met you people

31:10

from Colombia, some of my friends, some of my friends from the US. I said, "Okay." So, you know, I can stay here

31:16

for a day or two, meet the president. No, no, no. You're flying directly to the US. They put me in a plane, fly me

31:22

to the US. When we land in the airport, I had nothing. I had no papers. I have no passport, nothing. He said, "So, so

31:29

who's waiting for you?" You know, the guy at the at the airport, you know, CIA, FBI, Homeland, who's waiting for

31:35

you? I said, "No, no, I think I'm calling an Uber." [Laughter]

31:41

CIA, FBI, homeland, the homeland. And then I have my Uber.

31:48

That's great. So I get my Uber, go to friend's house, and um basically it

31:54

nobody knew uh that I had escaped, but the news was coming out. Talked to

31:59

ambassador, the news came out and um the Spanish government um put me in a plane

32:07

the next day. Uh, so the next day I flew to Madrid and I met my family and it was

32:14

an incredible day for family, but it was a new day for hardships. Yeah. Because

32:23

exile, like I told you, prison is tough. House arrest is tough for the reasons I

32:29

told you. An exile is very tough for someone that is taken out of the thing

32:39

that you've devoted your life to. It's like telling a medical doctor, you will never be able to practice again. Yeah.

32:46

You will never be able to step into hospital. Yeah. You um so that was the

32:52

beginning of another part of my life where I had to reinvent myself. I continued to be very

33:00

engaged in my movement in Venezuela with the entire opposition movement, but

33:05

understanding that I was no longer there. And the the most important realization for me was the most basic

33:13

one to realize that my present reality

33:18

was that I was now in exile. And and and I think this is true for

33:23

other people. It's just to you there are some things you cannot change. I mean you cannot

33:29

change and in my case I I couldn't change the fact that I was no longer in my country. Yeah. So I had to reinvent

33:35

myself. Um I continue to be very engaged as I said with my movement but I decided

33:42

to um give the leadership of the movement in Venezuela to another great

33:48

leader who was there. He's now in prison. um and he took the leadership of the

33:54

movement and um kept it going. Um but I

33:59

had to reinvent myself. So I came to the to the US for a couple of of meetings of

34:07

human rights uh events and started to meet other people uh from other

34:12

countries from Iran, from Russia, from Uganda, from Zimbabwe, from Kuba, from

34:21

Nicaragua and started to learn uh that my story was the same story of

34:29

many other people. M and that my fight really had no borders. And up until I

34:37

came into exile, my fight was constrained to the borders of my

34:43

country. And I started to understand that the things I was fighting for, freedom, human rights, democracy, which

34:51

for me and for Venezuelans and for the people who live under autocratic regimes, these are not theoretical

34:57

things. I mean everybody that is living under an autotocratic regime has a personal account of what it means to

35:05

live in a circumstance where you are not free because you cannot listen to the

35:10

things that you want to listen. You cannot move the way you c you you would like to move. You cannot work in the

35:16

things that you want to work. You cannot say the things that you would like to say. You cannot meet with the people you

35:21

would like to meet. So, everybody has a story about what it means to be living

35:27

in in in a space that is not free. So, um started to meet with great people and

35:35

we decided to create a new movement. And as I told you, that's I mean that's my

35:40

nuts and bolts. That's that's what I like to do. So I I pitch to them the

35:45

idea of building an alliance of freedom fighters and democracy defenders from

35:51

autocratic countries. So um with Gary Kasparov uh the Russian chess master

35:58

from Ro uh from Russia um Masia who is an incredible woman from Iran who was

36:06

leading the protest of the women of Iran um recently and and others. We decided

36:13

to create what we call the world liberty congress which is an alliance of democracy defenders, human uh human

36:20

human um uh rights defenders and freedom fighters from from autocratic countries.

36:28

So we have focused our alliance uh of the people from autocratic countries uh

36:35

because we narrowed what we want to do not to talk about democracy and to think of democracy at large. um that's I I can

36:43

have an opinion about the state of democracy in the US uh or in Europe, but what we want to focus is to support the

36:50

leaders and the movements from countries that are not democratic in order to

36:57

overcome dictatorship and become democracies. So, uh we met for the first

37:02

time in Lithuania uh in Eastern Europe in November of

37:08

2022. um we gathered like 200 people from 40 countries and we decided to formalize an

37:16

alliance. So a year after that in November of 23 we had over 350 um

37:24

activists from 56 countries and we decided to practice democracy to build

37:30

our movement and we decided to elect our leadership council. So for many of the

37:37

people that were there, this was the first time they voted and I was really

37:43

taken by the fact that people were very sentimental. They were crying and I

37:50

couldn't understand. They were saying this is the first time I'm voting for something that is meaningful. I have

37:56

never voted before. People from China, people from North Korea, people from

38:03

Syria. Um, and we build this movement by

38:08

practicing democracy. That's why I was really interested in what you were telling me about vituitity that you guys

38:14

have, you know, uh, thousands of partners and the partners elect the board members and then the board members

38:22

elect the CEO. So that's the way we built our movement. Uh, you're a

38:27

company. Uh, we are a movement. But in in a in a similar way the governance of

38:34

uh being democratic is very very powerful and especially practicing democracy is

38:41

something that we that we need to do because we come from countries um that

38:48

democracy it's it's not the dayto-day. So practicing you know electing people

38:53

practicing being transparent being accountable uh are very important things. So that's how we built the World

38:59

Liberty Congress. I dedicate, you know, an important part of my time today to

39:05

build this alliance. I'm very grateful for it. Uh because I have learned a great deal. I may be one of the few

39:13

people in the world that I I wouldn't say I'm the most knowledgeable because I'm not. there are academics and people

39:19

who are very knowledgeable of the specific circumstances of all of these countries. But I am one of the few that

39:27

are friends with the people who are the troublemakers against autocratic regimes. So I am friends with the people

39:33

who led the protest in Hong Kong, the people who won the election and the protest in Belarus, the people who are

39:40

protesting in Russia, the people who led the protest in Iran, the people who are

39:45

leading the protest in Cuba or in Nicaragua. They're all my friends. So

39:51

this is a very special movement of people that uh we all have our

39:57

commitment to our own countries. were very different terms of skin color, religion, history, climate, um I mean

40:05

you name it. But when we start talking about this, if you put in a room, imagine this, this is a room of 350

40:11

people that uh when we ask them how many of you have been in prison, half of the

40:17

room raised their hand. And when I asked them, how many of you have someone today

40:22

that is in prison that you know, everybody raised their hand. When I asked them how many of you have been the

40:29

victim of a murder attempt like a fifth of the people raised their hand. When I

40:35

asked them how many of you have been the victim of smear campaigns by the regimes

40:41

everybody raised their hand. So this is a very particular group of people you know when we meet and we we talk it's

40:46

like how many years you spent in prison? I spent seven. Oh I spent three. No, it's it's dayto day, you know. It's like

40:52

for you guys at ER, you know, how many, you know, how many bodies have you opened? You tell me the stories of what

40:59

happens in the ER room, you know, I'm shocked. Everybody's right. I'm shocked. It's like, wow. Right. But guys, like,

41:05

but er guys, it's like, oh, it's dayto day, right? So, the the dayto-day for this group of people is to confront

41:12

dictatorships uh and autocracies. And I think that this is uh one of the

41:18

big global issues um like climate change and I hope that

41:25

we can bring the level of consciousness about freedom and democracy to the level

41:31

that it was done with climate change over the past 30 years because we are not aware of the fact that 70% of the

41:41

people today in the world are living under some sort of autocratic regime. It

41:47

was 40% 12 years ago. So the state of the world is quickly moving to becoming

41:54

more and more autocratic and it doesn't seem to be a concern um to most people.

42:01

Yeah. So our challenge is to strengthen our movements in our countries, but also

42:08

to make people who live in democratic and free countries to realize that that

42:15

is a privilege and that is a privilege that every human being should be given.

42:23

The possibility of being free. And I strongly believe this. And I strongly

42:29

dispute the people that say that there are cultural elements for autocratic

42:36

regimes. People that say, "Oh, you don't understand the Middle East. They they can't have democracy. Oh, you don't

42:42

understand, you know, certain countries in Africa. They need they need strong men and they need, you know, autocratic

42:48

regimes." No, people want to be free. And I think everybody should be uh given the opportunity of living with dignity,

42:57

with freedom, and with respect to basic human rights. Yeah, that's that's

43:04

profound. I mean, and it it's a it's it's something that, you know, you pointed out and and I think we all go

43:11

through this in our leadership journeys, right? I mean the ability toffect affect one person becomes the ability to affect

43:18

one area which is the ability to affect you know sort of a bigger area than that and it's like this is this you are you

43:26

want to change the world and and people you know when you tell people that so

43:32

one of the the hashtags if you ever go on LinkedIn I always put hashtag change world and and people will DM me and say

43:39

you know that's corny it isn't it's daunting but it isn't corny and I think that

43:45

that's what you've you've taken something that has happened to you which is in some ways devastating but in other

43:51

ways inspirational and taken it now to the whole world. You know I was going to mention too we talked about this why

43:59

your story even now resonates with me and it'll resonate with me when we can

44:04

do this again and it will still every time I learn more and more and more. Um,

44:10

so I told you I grew up in Canada and didn't move to the United States when I was 18. I I was enamored with the United

44:16

States just like you were about the democracy. There were other things even though in Canada we had a great country

44:23

that I was just like, "Wow, this is a place where people actually pursue dreams." Like people with nothing can

44:29

become people with everything. Whether that's money or success or just even families, whatever you view as success,

44:36

that's a country that it can be done in. And I think I told you this in the back. My view of diversity is so interesting

44:43

because right now, you know, I think diversity in America is a little bit under fire. People are always talking

44:50

about anti-diversity and that I grew up with so many different cultures. When

44:55

you mentioned the World Liberty Conference, I like that was my entire class, you know, from all the different

45:00

places in the world that that people came from. Um, and we got together and we talked about our differences and we

45:08

talked about our similarities, but most of all, we were Canadian and we just were there living together. And I

45:14

remember coming to the United States at the time and it was very different, you know, it was sort of like you had to

45:19

belong to a certain cohort. So I think what you're doing, I remember when I was applying to college. Yeah. And uh, you

45:27

know, how do you identify yourself? I got different boxes. I and and I asked my I asked my father so so so what is

45:35

this you know I'm I'm brown right so there was no brown there was no brown I

45:41

was like are you Hispanic well I Hispanic I'm Venezuelan you know I'm a

45:46

brown Venezuelan so you know I my my first shock coming

45:53

here was that you know that that self description of the box the idea that you got to put yourself in some box that

46:00

somebody else has created for you when we're all so dynamic even in our heritages and our ethnicities, our

46:06

cultures. So, I I I want to thank you for coming today, but there's one more question I have for you, and you sort of

46:13

outlined it for me in your work in the World Liberty uh you know, Congress, but

46:19

what would you say that I know I know you're never finished. Clearly, you're

46:24

never finished. But if there was one thing where we look back and say, "Man,

46:30

this is the effect that Leopoldo had on the world." What would that be? What would that one thing be? Well, I hope that we can reverse that trend of

46:37

autocracy becoming more prevalent at a at a global level. I would like to

46:43

see cases of success. I would love that first case to be my own country,

46:48

Venezuela, and that we can start to shift the tide and become more and more democratic, to have a fourth wave of

46:56

democratization. And if I can have an impact on that and if I can have an impact on the fact that um a new type of

47:04

global leadership that is committed truly committed not to the pragmatist uh

47:10

positioning of supporting freedom and democracy and human rights, but really really really committing to the idea

47:18

that everybody's created equal, that everybody has the same rights, that everybody should be given the same

47:24

opportunities. um that is that that's that's what I will dedicate the rest of

47:30

my life to and I feel blessed that I have a purpose you know it's taking me to tough places and as I told you I've

47:37

been on top I've been on the bottom you know but uh but I've always been focusing in the purpose so for me it's

47:45

been a blessing to to live life with a purpose waking up every day knowing that

47:51

well they took me away from my country I can now not be in my country, but I figure out a way to to channel my energy

48:00

um with the same purpose in a different landscape, right? And now, you know, for

48:06

me, freedom in Venezuela or freedom in Uganda or freedom in Iran is is as

48:12

important and and it's as meaningful. And um I believe that this is this is

48:19

something that we can contribute in in a great deal uh to to bring people together and with the attitude of

48:29

overcoming the hardships of an autocrat, not with the attitude of being a victim.

48:35

Because in the space of human rights, there are many conferences about human rights and there are some that are very

48:41

very good. Um, but they usually focus on the story of a victim in order to get

48:50

the the pity of a people. I I don't want the tears. I don't want the I don't want the pity of the people, you know. I want

48:55

the support of the people for our cause. That's what I want. I want people to engage in the cause. I want people to

49:02

think of themselves as agents of change. I don't I don't I don't want, you know, the tears and the pity of something that

49:09

happened in the past because if you live as a victim, you neutralize yourself.

49:15

You're always giving power to the oppressor. If you stand up, you know, and and and just say how much hardship

49:22

you went through, you're also telling the story of how strong the dictatorship

49:28

is. Right. Right. That that's the underlying story. uh and but if you tell

49:33

the story in a different way saying this is what we went through but this is what we are continuing to do in order to

49:41

overcome the dictatorship that puts you in a different position. So would you would you consider yourself

49:48

a disruptor? Oh, absolutely. At core there was actually um when when you were

49:54

mentioning the disruptor type of leadership in 2015 foreign policy magazine they did kind of this world

50:01

leadership thing and they had categories and I was heading the disruptor category. You were okay that I was in

50:08

prison at the time. Yeah. So yeah I mean I'm a I mean I'm a troublemaker.

50:14

That's that's I think that's a better word. That's a better word. We'll change we'll change this. Let me tell you about my first movement. I know we're at at

50:21

the end, but I was in college at the time and this is you know when Desert Storm was going through the frat thing‍

50:29

and you know there was you know the pledging and you know after after a week

50:34

of pledging I was like I'm not going to do this man what you know I'm not going to go through this. Hey I'm nothing

50:39

against it but it was just not for me for you. Yeah. Not for me. Um, so I decided to create our own thing. So we

50:47

created this movement called Ashes, active students helping the earth survive. And this is in the early '9s.

50:54

Um, not now when you know climate change is completely mainstream. And

51:00

I decided to organize a movement uh under the the aura of green peace, you

51:07

know, very very um so desert storm comes

51:12

in. This is January of 1991, I believe. Yeah. And uh we were against the war and

51:20

all of this and I we decided to protest. So what we did is exactly a month after

51:27

the the dropping of the first bombs, we decided to um pull the alarms at the

51:35

exact same time uh one month after that. So 25 of us in our bicycles. We there

51:42

were no iPhones at the time. We synchronized our watches with our black

51:47

hoodies, you know, with our black hoodies. All right, I'll put mine up. I'll put mine up. Just with the black hoodies we going and we pulled, you

51:54

know, all of the alarms of the college. And uh the next day we had um you know,

52:00

our manifesto. Things were going very well. Uh but uh a friend of mine who was

52:07

in charge of copying the manifesto had gone to Kinkos and you know it was very easy for the head of security of the

52:14

university to go say did anybody come here uh to uh to copy this manifesto? Oh

52:20

yeah, did they leave the student ID? Oh yeah, here's the student ID. So they

52:26

caught Pete. Pete comes to me and he says, "We were caught. I was caught. You know they're going to kick me out." I said, "No, no, my friend. We're gonna do

52:32

this. got this. You're going to So, the 25 of us, we showed up to the dean's office and we were suspended and um but

52:40

uh but not kicked out of college. And uh I was going out with um with a a woman

52:46

at the time whose uncle was the head of the Teamsters in Pittsburgh. Okay. Uh

52:52

so, you know, we for three weeks I was a volunteer. Yeah. Teamsters doing the full thing. So

53:00

uh years after that years after that they gave me a PhD anorisa PhD. Oh wow.

53:06

And uh and I told this story and basically I told the students I said you know you need to be a disruptor. You

53:12

need to be and there might be consequences. You know maybe it was not a good idea to pull the alarms and I

53:17

know that's not a good thing but uh we certainly put the conversation uh front

53:23

and center and we certainly started to change things. So, um, yeah, I've always

53:28

think thought of myself as just disrupting and, uh, taking risks. I'm

53:34

sure a risk taker. Um, and, um, feeling feeling always, um, that you're in the

53:42

path of of doing the things that that are meaningful. Yeah. Yeah. Well, listen, I appreciate you coming. You So,

53:50

so, so I've never been across the pond, never been to Europe. uh ever. Although

53:57

I fly way too much and so you coming across the pond to come see me means

54:02

that I owe you a visit to come see you. I even though I've never been across I

54:09

don't need a reason I don't need an excuse excuse but is a great country. But honestly I I really appreciate you

54:15

coming spending the time telling the story. Um, I think you all out there definitely will, you know, check

54:23

out Leopoldo on his website, check out the World Liberty Conference, check out

54:28

him on social media. I think you bring I I mean, I think there's lessons. Obviously, you want to change the world

54:35

from the perspective of the autocratic regimes, which I think is a a magnificent goal, but I actually really

54:41

think that your goal, as you saw that it was broader than V Venezuela, my interpretation of what you're what you

54:46

could do for the world is is much much broader. You have a way to look at things that from a leadership

54:52

perspective, you have changed me in in in this podcast today. you've you've changed my and I've already known you

54:58

and I've already heard the stories, but just looking into your eyes and feeling what you felt and and the way you're you

55:05

are phrasing things and what you understand just you're a brilliant leader and so um you're definitely a

55:11

less than 1% leader or maybe maybe for you we'll call it the 2% 2% I mean the

55:16

2% but but I I really appreciate you and um you know again uh thank you so much for coming. Oh, thank you Moo. Thank you

55:23

and uh congratulations on this uh initiative uh for the podcast and you're you're also a great leader and with a

55:30

great story uh and and with a great company. I didn't know you know this this part of of um engaging in a

55:36

democratic way with the partners and being accountable to the people you work with. Y uh I think that's very important

55:43

and um I think that you know in whatever industry people are just just find what

55:48

it's really meaningful and wake up and and do it and know that there's going to be bad days and try to make the best of

55:55

that desert and and learn from the desert. Yes. So so thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Looking forward to

56:01

meeting more of uh of your peers. Yeah. And um I'm always here. All right. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Jordan. All

56:08

right. Appreciate it.